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Post by buzkan on Aug 6, 2007 11:14:12 GMT 3
As far as I know central Asia was originally mostly Iranic excluding modern Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan (ie Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan). My question that ive been pondering is did the Turkic tribes come from the north east all at once and settle Uzbekistan and Turkemnistan in one go and remove most of the Iranic populations forciby or was it a gradual movement of intermingling. I think Uzbeks and Turkmens have Iranic features so I guess it's likely that they mixed.. but to what extent?
Cheers.
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Post by Temüjin on Aug 6, 2007 21:02:50 GMT 3
a year ago they found a conserved Saka mummy with blonde hair and probably wetsern features, unfortunately the face was smached, other than that everythign was preserved. this was in Altay mountains in wetsern Mongolia. so i have to guess the Iranian component was present as far as Altay moutnains. the only question is, did Altaics (Turks etc) already live in that area or not, apparently only rulers got Kurgans and it seems Iranian Sakas were the ruling class. but it is possible the Turks were part of their confederation (and more numerous than Sakas perhaps. and revotled and then became the dominant tribes. other than that there must have been a migration of some sort.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 7, 2007 1:04:58 GMT 3
was it a gradual movement of intermingling. I think Uzbeks and Turkmens have Iranic features so I guess it's likely that they mixed.. This is the correct option  |
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Post by buzkan on Aug 7, 2007 10:39:06 GMT 3
Thanks Tigin. Temujin, I'm suprised to hear the Iranics may have got as far as Altay, is it possible that the blue eyes blonde hair (although i wonder how they tell a skull ha blue eyes!) came from a different ethnic group - I hear there are Turkic tribes in Turkmenistan with blond hair and blue eyes.
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Post by Temüjin on Aug 7, 2007 20:14:34 GMT 3
as i said the face was smashed because the Kurgan collapsed at that point, but the mummy still had blonde hair and from the cloth you could easily tell it was a Saka. can't remember if they did any DNA testing of some sort.
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Feb 13, 2008 0:22:08 GMT 3
As far as I know central Asia was originally mostly Iranic excluding modern Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan (ie Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan). Cheers. Kazakhstan was amongst their most important homelands. I believe Kyrgyzstan is so. because Kyrgyz migrated from somewhere else. |
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Post by kirischi on Jul 23, 2008 23:39:37 GMT 3
as i said the face was smashed because the Kurgan collapsed at that point, but the mummy still had blonde hair and from the cloth you could easily tell it was a Saka. can't remember if they did any DNA testing of some sort. Would it not be too early to conclude that the mummy was an Iranic then? |
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Post by Temüjin on Jul 24, 2008 22:23:13 GMT 3
no, there are no blonde Turks |
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Post by kirischi on Jul 25, 2008 0:05:51 GMT 3
actually there are.
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Post by ALTAR on Jul 25, 2008 13:18:32 GMT 3
no, there are no blonde Turks Yes, There are  |
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Post by ALTAR on Jul 25, 2008 13:42:28 GMT 3
And I have to add one thing more. Central Asia not completely Iranic in all of the history. Turk-Mongol Nomads were always main tribal structures of the steppe, If you look at the Chinese records.
Uzbek had more race mixing with Iranics(Sogdians, Sart, Tajiks etc.) because they were settled down to the big metropols which had huge Iranian population such as Semerkand, Buhara. However, Turkic Uzbeks are in the majority current Uzbekistan.
Turkmans always fiouht with Iranians and Uzbeks too. So that there were no siginificant race mixing of Turkmans with İranians
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 25, 2008 21:26:59 GMT 3
Actually, Mahmûd of Kâshghar mentions that there were Soghdian colonizers and merchants who lived in Yedisu, who got Turkified and mixed with the Oghuz living in the towns along the banks of rivers like Sayhun (Iaxartes, Sîr-i Daryâ), Chu (Sûyâb) and Talas. However, as Mahmûd says, the mixing happened with the sedentary Oghuz (called Yatuq by the nomadic Oghuz), and as you said, the nomads probably did not mix on a great extend; even if there was one, it must have been very limited. Differences in life styles probably prevented the nomadic Oghuz from mixing with sedentary Soghdians. Plus, there were no nomadic Iranics at the region at that time
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Post by Tamr Shayban Iskeri on Jul 25, 2008 23:20:54 GMT 3
I wonder sometimes how people can claim any kind of purity of so called race. There are definite norms that regional genetics show outwardly but people around the steppes and central Asia are by no means in an isolated genetic vacuum. There are freckled red haired Turks and Mongols and Tatars and as far as these people know there have been no outsiders in their families. This leads me to believe that at times in the past, things were much as they are now. People mix with their neighbors by love or captivity and always have.
If you are saying that in the country of Turkey there are no blond Turks then I wonder if you consider Ottoman Sultans to be Turks.
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Post by Temüjin on Jul 28, 2008 21:03:56 GMT 3
If you are saying that in the country of Turkey there are no blond Turks then I wonder if you consider Ottoman Sultans to be Turks. i didn't said there are no blondes in Turkey NOW, of course there are, Celts have freckles and Celts settled in Turkey (Galatia). perfectly explainable. i've also seen many Turks with Blue Eyes and even children with blonde hair (who got dark hair later), that doesn't mean however it is the typical appearance of Turks because those are by far in the minority. the picture of ataürk above has been recolored, so its no evidence, but is he really established as "aryan" in Turkey (blue eyes & blonde)? i've checked for some more pcitures of Atatürk and it appears to me there are no color photographs at all, only pictures later recolored like this one from his youth: tsk.mil.tr/anitkabir/album/ata-6.jpgwhich is not quite blonde...  |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 29, 2008 14:53:39 GMT 3
The tones of that photograph are quiet darkened, to let you know It is a well-known fact that Atatürk was blonde. No wonder why he was called "Sarı Paşa" (Yellow Pasha) by the common folk |
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