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Bäg
Nov 24, 2006 21:34:59 GMT 3
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 24, 2006 21:34:59 GMT 3
I have spotted several different theories on the ethymology of the Turkic title Bäg (Lord, Chieftain):
1) It is an original Old Turkic word, driving from Bäk- meaning "to wait, to protect". 2) It comes from the Iranic name βγ / βγy (Bagha) meaning "God". 3) It comes from the Chinese title Baifuzhang 百夫長 meaning "Captain". 3) It comes from Mongolian Begi or Jürchen Bögin.
What do you think on this issue? I personally stick to the first theory.
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Bäg
Nov 24, 2006 21:59:10 GMT 3
Post by Verinen Paroni on Nov 24, 2006 21:59:10 GMT 3
in Finnish language we have word "Pää" what means "Head".
For example: Päämies=Headman (Leader in this case), Päällikkö (Chief), Päällikkyys (Chieftain).
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Bäg
Nov 24, 2006 22:20:29 GMT 3
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 24, 2006 22:20:29 GMT 3
In Turkic, "Head" is Bash.
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Bäg
Nov 24, 2006 23:24:43 GMT 3
Post by balamir on Nov 24, 2006 23:24:43 GMT 3
I am sure that Beg is an ancient Turkic word
Ýt means "Rich person".
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Bäg
Nov 24, 2006 23:27:03 GMT 3
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 24, 2006 23:27:03 GMT 3
Hmm no, "Rich" in Turkic is Bay, not Bäg (Beg/Begh/Bey). These two are different words with different meanings with different writing styles.
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Bäg
Nov 24, 2006 23:37:25 GMT 3
Post by balamir on Nov 24, 2006 23:37:25 GMT 3
Hmmm,may be you are right...
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Bäg
Nov 24, 2006 23:57:48 GMT 3
Post by Atabeg on Nov 24, 2006 23:57:48 GMT 3
hmmm the word for brother in turkish we say abi or abe but the official form is agabeg or agabäg why is that if aga means well chief or leader and bag os the same why is it used 2x in one word
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Bäg
Nov 25, 2006 0:04:16 GMT 3
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 25, 2006 0:04:16 GMT 3
I also wonder that, I think Agha is originially a word indicating relationship, I have to check ethymological dictionaries.
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Bäg
Nov 25, 2006 18:53:14 GMT 3
Post by tengrikut on Nov 25, 2006 18:53:14 GMT 3
some says that "agha" means "bull-nuts" ;D ;D ;D
one of my close friend's mother told it ;D ;D ;D
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Bäg
Nov 26, 2006 21:50:35 GMT 3
Post by aca on Nov 26, 2006 21:50:35 GMT 3
I have spotted three different theories on the ethymology of the Turkic title Bäg (Lord, Chieftain): 1) It comes from the Iranic name Bagha meaning "God". 2) It comes from the Chinese title Bo (or Fu, old pronunciaton Bäk, could not find the character) meaning "Captain". 3) It is an original Old Turkic word. What do you think on this issue? Reading the Bugut inscription, that first theory came to my mind. But, then I remembered the turkic title Bwyla Bagha Tarqan from Orkhon Inscriptions, so it seems that this word existed in VIII c. Turkic language in the same shape as in Soghdian - which means that Turks did take Soghdian word Bagha, but not in the meaning of "Bäg". Indeed, in Indo-European languages is very common to reffer to the God as "the Lord" (for example in Slavic "Gospod="the Lord" used in the meaning of "God" / and "Gospodin"="bey" in modern Turkish, meaning "mister"). But I'm not sure if this was the case in Old Turkic. I don't know Chinese, so I cannot make a comment on the second theory Is this Chinese title Bo (or Fu, old pronunciaton Bäk a common Chinese title, used both for Chinese and the other peoples' officers? Could it be that the Chinese took the word from the Turks?
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Bäg
Nov 27, 2006 0:38:56 GMT 3
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 27, 2006 0:38:56 GMT 3
What about the title Baghatur/Boghatïr? Is it possible that Bagha used in Turkic be related with this title? If the real name of Modu was indeed Baghatur, Baghtur or a version of this, what will this mean (I have some doubts on this theory, but I can not completely refuse it)? Yes, that also came to my mind. The only character related with my earlier post can be 百 Bó/Bǎi meaning "Hundred". According to Pulleyblank, it was pronunced Paijk/Peijk in the 4th-7th centuries whereas it became being pronunced as Pajk during the Tang period. I still have to ask Özkan Ýzgi or someone else who knows Chinese
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Bäg
Nov 27, 2006 13:36:08 GMT 3
Post by aca on Nov 27, 2006 13:36:08 GMT 3
I think it is possible that the title Baghatur is related to the Soghdian Bagha, but on the other hand this may not be the case. To me the title Baghatur looks as pure Turko-Mongol (maybe from Old Turkic "buqa" = "bull" ) Anyway, I don't think that Baghatur is related to the title "Bäg", because they have totaly different meanings - one "Bäg" can be Baghatur, but it doesn't mean that every Baghatur have to be a "Bäg". About Modu's real name - I must say that I'm not always sure about modern interpretation of Chinese versions of Turkic names
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Bäg
Nov 27, 2006 21:33:29 GMT 3
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 27, 2006 21:33:29 GMT 3
In this case, the old pronunciations of Chinese get into action; they are crucial in finding out the real forms of foreign words transcripted in Chinese. For example, Turkic Baghatur is written with the characters ĪÙRßÍ (Simplified ĪºØßÍ) in Chinese; they are pronunced M¨°h¨¨du¨ in Modern Mandarin, but Pulleyblank gives their Tang-period pronunciation (7th-10th centuries) as Mak-kha-(?) (does not have the ßÍ Du¨ character ). Or the title Qaghan is written with the characters ¿Éº¹; they are pronunced K¨§h¨¤n in Modern Mandarin, but Pulleyblank gives their Tang-period pronunciation as Ka-ghan which is nearly the same with the Old Turkic pronunciation.
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Bäg
Nov 29, 2006 2:38:46 GMT 3
Post by suren911 on Nov 29, 2006 2:38:46 GMT 3
The Manchurian word for "beg" is "beile" (pronounced "bay-leh") as in prince.
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Bäg
Nov 29, 2006 5:22:18 GMT 3
Post by snafu on Nov 29, 2006 5:22:18 GMT 3
Does the later Mongolian "Beki" come from Beg? It seems to have a similar meaning, being given to important people.
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