Bäg

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Some think that way.

[tangriberdi]

Dear forum participants, as a person who is very interested in languages especially in Turkic languages, Ithink that Bæg is a definitely Turkic word. It must be of Altaic roots. Let me explain as much as I can, as far as I know.
First of all, There is an indoeuropean word baga but (it is not pronounced as baagaa. It is just like bæ: gæ:
This word in old IE languages ordinarily meant God. Especially in Iranic ones and to some extent in Slavic ones.

And it really well known that Iranic æ never turns into an a(aa). It rather evolves into e (as in bed) or and ultimately i(as in bid).
Even in old Avestan or in any Iranic/Indian source the word baga never reflects Baagaa. And it is known well that Baagaa meaning god in Iranic languages died out before it achieved to evolve enough to another form. It is an obsolete word in Iranic languages almost about 2000 years.

So, Turkic bæg means lord, powerful and influential man, rich man.
Is not it?
But we can only trace it to bæk (Bæk>Bæg>Bægh and Bæy:Bey in Anatolian Turkish)
No further version.
But as a title we have also Baga(baagaa) in old Turkic. Its definite meaning cannot be attested yet but thought to be akin to that of bæg
In old Turkic we have the word Bay( baay)
The same meaning as Mongolic Baaiaan or Baaigaan, rich rich man, powerful man
Bay Baaiaan Baga Bæk all these words tell us about power, might , influence, richness.
Am I wrong?
This word should have an Altaic root.

I know that is not much of science, but rather a pseudo one . But these are my sincee feelings and thoughts.

[aca]

First of all, There is an indoeuropean word baga but (it is not pronounced as baagaa. It is just like b©¡: g©¡:
This word in old IE languages ordinarily meant God. Especially in Iranic ones and to some extent in Slavic ones.

I am not sure about pronaunciation of the Indo-European word "baga" in ancient times. The only thing I know is that this word in Soghdian was transkribed as "βγy" (with hard "γ" = "gh"), and this word is still being used in all Slavic languages as "Bog" meaning "The God".

And it really well known that Iranic ©¡ never turns into an a(aa). It rather evolves into e (as in bed) or and ultimately i(as in bid).

If this word was pronounced with ©¡ in Iranic, than I must note that this ©¡ sound have obviously turned into "o" in Slavic.

It is an obsolete word in Iranic languages almost about 2000 years.

Maybe in some Iranic languages is obsolete almost about 2000 years, but this word is mentioned several times in the Bugut inscription (581-587) and in inscription of Mongolkure (Eastern Turkestan) belonging to 599 or 601.

Bay Baaiaan Baga B©¡k all these words tell us about power, might , influence, richness.
Am I wrong?

You are right. But aren't these things -"power", "might", "influence" etc. - also things that we recognize in God?

About "b©¡k"

This word should have an Altaic root.

I think that this is very possible, but I also cannot definitly exclude other theories.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Hmm interesting points, thank you Tangriberdi.

But is there really a connection between Bäg (Lord/Chieftain) and Bay (Rich) in Old Turkic?

[tangriberdi]

admin said:

Hmm interesting points, thank you Tangriberdi.

But is there really a connection between Bäg (Lord/Chieftain) and Bay (Rich) in Old Turkic?

Beg means Lord Chiftain, Master etc... And those people who have the characteristics of being a beg has also riches and wealth. So a rich( bay has some influence in the society. If you consider the situation in time, you willl see that not everyone can be a rich person so a rich person seems to close to be a beg as well.
Also the same is valid for Mongolian counterpart/equivalent of the word.
Baayghaan means Rich also something like a beg.
And it has not been determined the certain meraning of Baqa in old Turkic. Baga(a title)is considered in somewhere between the meanings of Baay and Beg in old Turkic. This word must be the lost piece of the puzzle.
And yes all Turkic and Mongolian words : Beg Bay Aqa Baayghaan have the same root.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Hmm I don't know...

By the way, the Mongolian form is Bayan, not Baayghaan, as far as I know.

[tangriberdi]

admin said:

Hmm I don't know...

By the way, the Mongolian form is Bayan, not Baayghaan, as far as I know.

What you know is true as far as I know ;D
I mixed up it withn another word. Yes in Mongolian it is Baayan

[Atabeg]

isn't this also the name of a western hunnic leader and why are women turkish called bayan


I know bay means rich men(sir) but why should be bayan be the female version

and I doubt that this has anything to do with the word bayan above but does it.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

ahiskali said:

isn't this also the name of a western hunnic leader and why are women turkish called bayan


I know bay means rich men(sir) but why should be bayan be the female version

and I doubt that this has anything to do with the word bayan above but does it.

It was the name of Bayan Khaghan, the most well-known Avar ruler.

The modern form meaning female must be a kind of new invention.

[Temüjin]

there was also a Mongol general with this name

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Yes but if I remember correctly, he was of Uyghur origin.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

I did a little research on Agha. Obviously, it is a Turkic word meaning "Elder Brother" in most of the dialects, but it also means "Father" in some. It is definitially not Mongolian.

[Bor Chono]

admin said:

I did a little research on Agha. Obviously, it is a Turkic word meaning "Elder Brother" in most of the dialects, but it also means "Father" in some. It is definitially not Mongolian.

Hmm...
Mongols still use "Ah"(Aha) as "Elder brother"
Aav(Abu) is "Father"
Do Turks use Agha nowdays as "Elder brother"?

[Bor Chono]

In Mongolian lang word "Bag" means "Mask" or "Group"
"Bag tsereg" means "A Group of soldiers"
"Bagtai tsereg" means "A Soldiers with mask"

Word "Baglah" means "to cover someones face".

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Do Turks use Agha nowdays as "Elder brother"?

In Turkey, it's used as Aðabey (Aghabäy, Agha Bäy but the "gh" is soft, not hard).