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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 14, 2010 11:18:16 GMT 3
I'm not sure if Tengrism is a religion. I like to think of it as "the way it already is,was" Actually I'm more in favor of considering it a religion because it had a special pantheon, several different mythologies and ways of worship, even though practices and the pantheon always changed from people to people and from time to time. I feel like I don't actually have a belief or disbelief in any religion, but I feel like I already know what Tengri is, and what I am. ... For me, Tengri feels like, being extension of everything and every human being. That's more like pantheism I guess  I am sure Tengrism is monotheistic. To my comprehension, the other lesser gods are somewhat like "angels" Yes, this is the generally accepted theory among the Turkish scholars who have studied this subject. However I think differently, because in the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), angels are the helpers of the God without any distinctive consciousness. However, in the Turko-Mongol beliefs, the other sacred things besides Täŋri (Tengri) are different from the angel concept of Abrahamic religions, because the Turks and Mongols believed that these beings had their own separate powers and consciousness different from Täŋri himself; these beings were sometimes worshipped together with Täŋri, but sometimes separately from him; and sacrifices were made to these beings besides to Täŋri, which is certainly something very against Abrahamic religions. Surely, the Turks and Mongols believed that Täŋri was the only creator, but the Ancient Greeks for example had the same belief too (Ouranos) One more thing: Sometimes when friends start talking about the concept of God and existence in general, some guy always says a things like: -why did God create me? -etc,etc... and -I didn't ask the God to create me! Why should I thank God? I always answer this question with this response: But you really tried so hard to reach the egg when you were a single sperm. Yes, but the thing is that, you are not the sperm itself, but you are the mixture of the sperm and the egg  |
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Post by Atabeg on May 14, 2010 12:14:48 GMT 3
How do tengrist pray, i mean besides the shamans; What are the practises?
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Post by Subu'atai on May 14, 2010 16:23:51 GMT 3
Prayers can be lifted up to the eternal blue sky through smoke and incense, you can tie on flags to trees for the wind to carry on your prayers as well. From recent experience it is actually quite powerful. Tengriism is generally more about being in balance however, rather then rituals, at least compared to other religions and rituals.
It's a beautiful faith, and difficult yet powerful principles that are worth preserving.
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Post by ancalimon on May 14, 2010 16:48:33 GMT 3
I'm not sure if Tengrism is a religion. I like to think of it as "the way it already is,was" Actually I'm more in favor of considering it a religion because it had a special pantheon, several different mythologies and ways of worship, even though practices and the pantheon always changed from people to people and from time to time. That's more like pantheism I guess Yes, this is the generally accepted theory among the Turkish scholars who have studied this subject. However I think differently, because in the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), angels are the helpers of the God without any distinctive consciousness. However, in the Turko-Mongol beliefs, the other sacred things besides Täŋri (Tengri) are different from the angel concept of Abrahamic religions, because the Turks and Mongols believed that these beings had their own separate powers and consciousness different from Täŋri himself; these beings were sometimes worshipped together with Täŋri, but sometimes separately from him; and sacrifices were made to these beings besides to Täŋri, which is certainly something very against Abrahamic religions. Surely, the Turks and Mongols believed that Täŋri was the only creator, but the Ancient Greeks for example had the same belief too (Ouranos) One more thing: Sometimes when friends start talking about the concept of God and existence in general, some guy always says a things like: -why did God create me? -etc,etc... and -I didn't ask the God to create me! Why should I thank God? I always answer this question with this response: But you really tried so hard to reach the egg when you were a single sperm. Yes, but the thing is that, you are not the sperm itself, but you are the mixture of the sperm and the egg Similar to Pantheism. But pantheism limits itself. But it doesn't explain what I mean. I don't have a belief or disbelief. I feel like I know, and I don't need to believe. I think, believing is like being dishonest, disrespectful with yourself. I'd like to think of a creator force, that created everything by using its (no gender) will, but there is no time-line of what's created. Because Tengri created everything in all of the times. I don't think there's any difference between worshiping, wishing, hoping. When I wish or hope someone loves me, that's no different than worshiping. I know there is something called fate and that's just the time-line created by Tengri, God, Allah, etc. I know humans have free minds, but Tengri already knew what every single human would have done. And Tengri already knew what every other entity would have done. I also would like to think humans can transcend to join unity, but we lost this ability for a long time. |
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Post by Atabeg on May 14, 2010 23:11:57 GMT 3
Prayers can be lifted up to the eternal blue sky through smoke and incense, you can tie on flags to trees for the wind to carry on your prayers as well. From recent experience it is actually quite powerful. Tengriism is generally more about being in balance however, rather then rituals, at least compared to other religions and rituals. It's a beautiful faith, and difficult yet powerful principles that are worth preserving. Tying things to a prayer three  This is still done in Turkey  TENGRIISM is ALIVE muhahaha  |
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Post by ancalimon on May 15, 2010 1:32:46 GMT 3
Prayers can be lifted up to the eternal blue sky through smoke and incense, you can tie on flags to trees for the wind to carry on your prayers as well. From recent experience it is actually quite powerful. Tengriism is generally more about being in balance however, rather then rituals, at least compared to other religions and rituals. It's a beautiful faith, and difficult yet powerful principles that are worth preserving. Tying things to a prayer three This is still done in Turkey TENGRIISM is ALIVE muhahaha We did it three nights ago. Doing it always gives my heart a really warm feeling. |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 16, 2010 1:39:41 GMT 3
How do tengrist pray, i mean besides the shamans; What are the practises? We have several accounts regarding this matter: - According to the Asian Hun monographies in Shi-ji 史記 and Han-shu 漢書, every fifth month of the year the Huns made a great gathering at a place called Long-cheng 蘢城 and presented sacrifices to their ancestors, the sky (which would be Täŋri), the earth and spirits ("gui shen 鬼神"; Shi-ji, 110, 2892; Han-shu, 94A, 3752). - According to the Gokturk monographies in Zhou-shu 周書, Bei-shi 北史, Sui-shu 隋書, Tong-dian 通典 and Ce-fu Yuan-gui 冊府元龜, the Gokturks gathered at Ta-ren Shui 他人水 (River Tamir in Mongolia) to present sacrifices to the God of Sky ("Tian-shen 天神", which is Täŋri; Zhou-shu, 50: 910; Bei-shi, 99, 3288; Sui-shu, 84, 1864; Tong-dian, 197, 5404; CFYG, 961, 11311a). Sui-shu gives additional info by saying that every 5th month of each year, the Gokturks gathered there and sacrificed their sheep and horses; CFYG adds that sacrifices were made at the 8th month alongside the 5th. - According to the 7th century Byzantine historian Theophylaktos Simokattēs Θεοφύλακτος Σιμοκάττης, the Turks (Western Gokturks) sacrificed goat, ox and sheep to the God (which would be Täŋri). - According to the 6th century Byzantine historian Menandros Μένανδρος, one of the eight administrators ruling the Gokturk Empire in 576, Tourxanthos Τούρξαθος, during his father Dilziboulos' Διλζίβουλός (Ištämi Yabġu) funeral, sacrificed to his father's soul the horses ridden by his father during his lifetime, and four prisoners that carried his father. There are various records in the Chinese sources regarding sheep, horse, cattle and sometimes human sacrifices in Gokturk funerals, but right now I don't have time to post them all (I can do that later though, if demanded). - According to the Gokturk monographies in Zhou-shu, Bei-shi and Tong-dian, each year the Gokturk qaġans brought their nobles to their ancestral caves (in the Altais) to present sacrifices to their ancestors (Zhou-shu, 50, 910; Bei-shi, 99, 3288; Tong-dian, 197, 5404). - According to the Western Gokturk monographies in Sui-shu and Tong-dian, plus according to some records in Ce-fu Yuan-gui, each year the Western Gokturks sent a high-ranking officer to the cave where their ancestors once lived (Sui-shu, 84, 1876-1877; CFYG, 961, 11311b; Tong-dian, 199, 5453). This means that the Western Gokturks sent a representative to the ceremonies mentioned above. - According to the biography of Chinese statesman Yang Su 楊素 in Sui-shu, when the Western Gokturk ruler Da-tou 達頭 (Tardu Qaġan; 576-603) attacked Ling-zhou 灵州 in northwestern China in the 18th year of Kai-huang 開皇 Era (598), upon receiving good news he jumped off from his horse and looking to the sky, he prostrated (Sui-shu, 48, 1286). - According to the biography of Liu Hei-ta 劉黑闥 in Xin Tang-shu 新唐書, Liu Hei-ta (who was an opposer of the Tang Dynasty during its early years in the 610s-620s) and the Gokturks that supported him were defeated by Shuang Shi-luo 雙士洛, the Dong-guan 總管 (military governor) of Ding-zhou 定州 in northeastern China. When the Tang brought standart measures to the lenghts of bows and arrows used in the army, this commander's weapons had become twice the lenght of the new standart. During the battle, when the governor was cornered by the Gokturks, he forced them to retreat by shooting his long arrows; later, when the Gokturks found these arrows, they shuffled these arrows from one warrior to another and thought that these were divine. Later, one big bow and five long arrows were left to the Gokturks, who kept these in their armories, saw them as treasures from one generation to another and when they presented rich offerings on a hill, they put these weapons infront of other offerings and this way, they delievered messages of their victories (most probably to Täŋri; Xin Tang-shu, 48, 3717-3718). - According to the biography of the Chinese statesman Zhang Ren-yuan 張仁愿 in Xin Tang-shu, before going on raids in China, the Gokturks visited the Fu-yun Ci 拂雲祠 (Fu-yun Temple) north of Huang-he 黄河 (Yellow River) and prayed for surpassing difficulties ("bi xian ye ci dao jie 必先謁祠禱解"; XTS, 111, 4152). - According to the Gokturk monography in Sui-shu, the Eastern Gokturk ruler Qimin Qaġan 啟民可汗 (600-609) prayed (si 祀) for the living of his state about to fall down, but the thing prayed is not mentioned (Sui-shu, 84, 1875). - According to the 10th century Arabic poet and traveller Abū Dulaf Mis'ar bin Muhalhil, the Kyrgyz (Yenisei Kyrgyz) had poetic prayers and hymns used while worshipping. Plus, according to him, the Toquz Oghuz (Uyghurs) worshipped to the direction where the sun set while the Kyrgyz worshipped towards the sun. These are the examples I could find among my notes in a few seconds. Btw, the Old Turkic terms used for "prayer" were Ötüg and Alqïš ("Alkış" used in Modern Turkish). |
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Post by ancalimon on May 16, 2010 7:31:17 GMT 3
Ppl! U didn`t answer to my question!  Look at this pics -they are tree leaf shapes. Whick one is right pic? A or B? I ask again, which one is right 1 or 2. Every one know what is wrong what is right!  Does this picture have anything to do with what you're trying to show us here?  |
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Post by ancalimon on May 16, 2010 8:42:16 GMT 3
Will of Tengri? -This question has no answer. ;DBecause He is too powerful that he doesn`t care about our lives. He doesn`t ask -only mortals want something or ask gods for help. Cristians want to deliver their leader`s(=Jesus) messege all over the world. His messege did not change their human nature,(U can`t forget your sins -maybe when U lose your mind) Thinking that this god cleaned all your sins gives some reason to continue their life -I think no one knows what was the real idea of his father God(Who is he?) -who needs end of world or a Lord anyway?. Buddists want to have peace all over the world -they think that if you can control your emotions U can achive great knowledge. And if U do bad things U will collect bad energy(=sin), if U do good things U will collect good energy. Budda did not tell that he was a god -he bacame one(Jesus too became god after death). Who is a god! By Mongolian tradition every human become BURKAN=God after death. God is a spirit. But Tengri is not god. Budda is called "Burkan Bagsh"="Teacher god". For many years Mongolian Buddism tryed to use & unite old beliefs of Mongols with ideas of Budda. From human spirits to monstars they have pics/images & descriptions. Still Tengries have no image or descriptions -like they don`t exist. They are like PURE ENERGY. It is not that Buddism destroyed old images of Tengries from ppl`s mind. Mongolian buddism say by the will of tengries this or that god will save U. Human spirit :  Nomad Human soul (Nomads must have a horse) rides a horse=spirit-horse that can take U to heaven, holds a spear(I don`t know why spear? not a bow) and followed by dog =royal friend, lead by a bird(maybe eagle or falcon =sacret animals). The great khaan claimed that Mongols were chosen ppl & this war is going only by will of Tengri. Win or Lose Tengri knows. Gods have nothing to do with Tengri, so ppl are allowed to worship to their gods=spirits. But steppe noble had connection with Tengri so The Great Khaan wanted to capture everyone. (Steppe is called middle earth. Maybe Tengri has no power over sedentary down worlds.) Now in Mongolia every mongols like/love to call himself "TENGER YAZGUUR" means "Tenger Noble"="Messenger of Tengri" -But, I think that most don`t understand "Who was Tenger noble ppl". Not Buddism but Soviet regim almost ended these Tengri nobles -some say in year 1937 Stalin sent 35000 bullets to Mongolia, some months later Mongolian government sends 35000 names of nobles  . besides noble families monks, rich ppl also were killed. But all nobles weren`t true Tenger nobles -it is said there is one in 10000(maybe it is because The Great khaan had 10000 elite bodyguards -in battle U need to kill all, because U don`t know who is who /-a legend /). Who is a true Tenger yazguurtan=True messenger of Tengri.(few what I know) Person with great energy=Aura -everyone will be attracted. Where ever he go rain follows or if he ask it will rain. Person who doesn`t eat fish, land diggers meat(maybe mouse like spicies). He can see future in his dreams. Must have special hands or palms (His cloths can be dirty I guess). His movement and speach(doesn`t speak much) is clean -Great leader or warrior. What about will of Allah Tengri? Ofcourse Muhhammed had ideas & wishes too?. What about sin? Do Islam promise sin cleaning? Things are getting weird. Isn't Burak the flying horse that takes the prophets to God during some form of trance? and what is the connection between Nomad Human Soul and Odin?!   Can you see any similarities between these pictures of Odin I posted and the picture Bor Chono posted? |
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Post by Atabeg on May 17, 2010 0:10:59 GMT 3
Human sacrifices OMT |
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Post by hjernespiser on May 17, 2010 0:31:46 GMT 3
I know the answer to the question A or B!
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Post by ancalimon on May 17, 2010 9:12:47 GMT 3
I know the answer to the question A or B! Please tell us Also check Oden and Nomad Human Soul pictures two posts above! |
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Post by Subu'atai on May 17, 2010 12:25:53 GMT 3
Human sacrifices OMT I wouldn't take Byzantine accounts so accurately, balance up those 'historical sources' with the preserved practises of Siberian Mongolic or Turkic tribes and in the end you really wonder why propaganda and politics always enter history. |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 17, 2010 15:16:38 GMT 3
At that time, the Byzantines were allies of the Turks Besides, Chinese sources tell us several accounts where prisoners were sacrificed for the souls of rulers and nobility. In the Orkhon inscriptions, the term erecting (someone's) balbal probably refers to this practice. Besides, according to the Secret History of Mongols, Jamuqa asked Temüjin to execute him in a noble way so that his soul would serve for Temüjin after the execution. |
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Post by Subu'atai on May 17, 2010 15:40:24 GMT 3
I have no idea how Jamuqa's execution can be considered a form of human sacrifice lol!
"Human sacrifice" is a very strong word my friend, not sure if it should be used lightly. If so, I guess Japanese Samurai after the death of their Daimyo committing Seppuku can be considered human sacrifice.
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This is still done in Turkey 
TENGRIISM is ALIVE muhahaha 
. besides noble families monks, rich ppl also were killed. But all nobles weren`t true Tenger nobles -it is said there is one in 10000(maybe it is because The Great khaan had 10000 elite bodyguards -in battle U need to kill all, because U don`t know who is who /-a legend 
