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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 2, 2011 15:15:37 GMT 3
Baghatur is most probably related with Bogha, an Old Turkic word meaning "Bull".
No, Buddha is not chosen as a God. In fact, "Buddha" means "Enlightened One" in Sanskrit.
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Post by jamyangnorbu on Oct 2, 2011 18:22:49 GMT 3
More specifically, Buddha means awakened.
The unfortunate and nonliteral translation "enlightenment" was used by early protestant British translators and it has stuck.
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 3, 2011 0:23:11 GMT 3
In regard to baghatur I have thought about at least two possible etymologies:
One is from Indo-Iranian bhaga > baga > bagh - "god, lord" (lit. "dispenser, rich" from the initial meaning "share" > "wealth" or "destiny, luck") and tura - "quick, strong" (also "rich, abundant"). Thus the compound could mean something like "having divine power/strength/luck".
Another possibility is from Old Turkic bayat - "god" which is likewise related to the meanings of "wealthy, rich" (bay, bayaghut) and "lord" (beg/bek/bey) and urï - "son, boy". Thus baghatur would be "god's son" i.e. "demigod, hero".
In this regard there is a curious folk tradition in South-Western Bulgaria and Macedonia in which the fairy-tale heroes are considered sons of dragons. Contrary to the Slavic and generally European tradition here the dragon (zmey) is described as benign anthropomorphic creature living in inapproachable mountain palace, flying with thunder chariot and sometimes abducting girls who then give birth to the heroes. Obviously those are kind of deities which reminds of the dragon cult amongst Steppe people and particularly Huns and Sarmatians. According to another version the "zmey" is a child born with wings under his armpits who can go into trance and in this state to fight the hala ("wind-spout"). The latter is a legendary creature depicted as flying in dark cloud while its long tale hangs to the ground uprooting trees and blowing houses - obviously tornado which is very rare in the Balkans but quite common in Central Asia. That's why I consider this a shamanistic motif derived from the Hunno-Sarmatian heritage.
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Post by ancalimon on Oct 3, 2011 5:54:53 GMT 3
Maybe the name Khidr (Hızır) is also related with this name. But it's probably only related with green and things related with it.
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Post by merlkir on Oct 3, 2011 10:41:41 GMT 3
In this regard there is a curious folk tradition in South-Western Bulgaria and Macedonia in which the fairy-tale heroes are considered sons of dragons. Contrary to the Slavic and generally European tradition here the dragon ( zmey) is described as benign anthropomorphic creature living in inapproachable mountain palace, flying with thunder chariot and sometimes abducting girls who then give birth to the heroes. Obviously those are kind of deities which reminds of the dragon cult amongst Steppe people and particularly Huns and Sarmatians. According to another version the " zmey" is a child born with wings under his armpits who can go into trance and in this state to fight the hala ("wind-spout"). The latter is a legendary creature depicted as flying in dark cloud while its long tale hangs to the ground uprooting trees and blowing houses - obviously tornado which is very rare in the Balkans but quite common in Central Asia. That's why I consider this a shamanistic motif derived from the Hunno-Sarmatian heritage. I wouldn't say that's contrary to the IE/Slavic mythology - variants of Zmej appear in various Slavic mythologies. Sometimes they're heroes fighting dragons, sometimes they're sons of dragons, sometimes they're wandering mystics falling into trance and fighting demons and evil souls of the dead. (ensuring good crops, nice weather and so on) So while I don't think it's particularly exceptional (heck, there are very antropomorphic dragons living on mountains in Russian folklore too), it might indeed be remnants of some steppe influence. Particularly studies into this matter consider these dragon warriors to be an ofshoot or shift of the thunder god worship. (in some slavic countries the names of thunder gods were passed to dragons and devils by the christian church and the thunder gods were named after saints, thus their worship could remain the same under christianity and the gods themselves "became" evil beings) I like this stuff.  |
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 4, 2011 4:00:10 GMT 3
Maybe the name Khidr (Hızır) is also related with this name. But it's probably only related with green and things related with it. No, it's Arabian word for "green". I think we've discussed this before. I wouldn't say that's contrary to the IE/Slavic mythology - variants of Zmej appear in various Slavic mythologies. Sometimes they're heroes fighting dragons, sometimes they're sons of dragons, sometimes they're wandering mystics falling into trance and fighting demons and evil souls of the dead. (ensuring good crops, nice weather and so on) So while I don't think it's particularly exceptional (heck, there are very antropomorphic dragons living on mountains in Russian folklore too), it might indeed be remnants of some steppe influence. Particularly studies into this matter consider these dragon warriors to be an ofshoot or shift of the thunder god worship. (in some slavic countries the names of thunder gods were passed to dragons and devils by the christian church and the thunder gods were named after saints, thus their worship could remain the same under christianity and the gods themselves "became" evil beings) I like this stuff. Well, what I meant was that it is rare the dragon to be considered in favourable light or as auspicious being and protector. Most commonly dragons are antagonists in the myths, legends and fairy-tales. And since in the Steppe cultures this situation seems to be opposite (also in China and the Far East, but a direct Chinese influence in ancient Europe is hardly possible), where such unusual traditions are found we can suspect a Steppe origin. As for the other stories where Dragon/Zmey is the bad guy, they could also sometimes represent the feared Steppe warriors or their kings. I have came across such interpretations as far as Russian folklor is concerned. For instance the name of the famous character Koshchey the Immortal from Russian tales obviously comes from quščï - "falconer" and it is known that the hunt with falcons was common sport amongst the Steppe nobility. But indeed those anthropomorphic dragons are most likely the ancient gods in disguise (it seems this is "the twilight of the gods" and in many respects we still live in the Dark Ages...). BTW according to those folk tales I mentioned in my previous post the dragons have disappeared after the advent of the fire guns. |
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Post by ancalimon on Oct 4, 2011 6:28:49 GMT 3
Ardavarz: Any ruler that had set draconian laws could have been interpreted as a "dragon". There's a childrens book written by my grandfather called Ejderha Taşı (Dragon Stone). It is a myth told to him by his mother which took place in the city I was born in. tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmet_Kabakl%C4%B1 Here is a Turkish short version: www.gizemlikapi.com/efsaneler/68013-ejderha-tasi-efsanesi.htmlBasically it talks about a dragon and his children coming to devour Harput but the good people pray to God and God turns the dragon into stone. That dragon probably was some kind of metaphor. It was probably a harsh ruler and it's children his soldiers. They were their enemies coming to hurt them. --- Also the root خضر (kh D r) might have another etymology meaning green might not be its original meaning. My interpretation of the word Hýzýr as "God's Chosen" is totally coherent with how Hýzýr is seen as in Turkish culture. He is sometimes seen as "God's adopted child". |
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Post by merlkir on Oct 4, 2011 10:26:39 GMT 3
For instance the name of the famous character Koshchey the Immortal from Russian tales obviously comes from quščï - "falconer" and it is known that the hunt with falcons was common sport amongst the Steppe nobility. I don't quite remember this character being a falconer.  |
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 5, 2011 3:08:14 GMT 3
For instance the name of the famous character Koshchey the Immortal from Russian tales obviously comes from quščï - "falconer" and it is known that the hunt with falcons was common sport amongst the Steppe nobility. I don't quite remember this character being a falconer. Kashchei/Koshchei wasn't literally a falconer in the tale (even though he could fly or turn into bird if I remember correctly), but his name can be derived from the Turkic word for "falconer". It is quite natural for it to receive a new meaning through folk-etymology in Slavic-speaking environment. (I have read also another suggestion from Chuvash kushtan allegedly meaning "governor"). As I said the Steppe rulers have loved falcon hunt and this can appear fascinating and scaring for mythological thinking - as if the man sends a part of himself to do his bidding like the shaman sends his animal spirit-helper who is often a bird too. Ardavarz: Any ruler that had set draconian laws could have been interpreted as a "dragon". There's a childrens book written by my grandfather called Ejderha Taşı (Dragon Stone). It is a myth told to him by his mother which took place in the city I was born in. tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmet_Kabakl%C4%B1 Here is a Turkish short version: www.gizemlikapi.com/efsaneler/68013-ejderha-tasi-efsanesi.htmlBasically it talks about a dragon and his children coming to devour Harput but the good people pray to God and God turns the dragon into stone. That dragon probably was some kind of metaphor. It was probably a harsh ruler and it's children his soldiers. They were their enemies coming to hurt them. --- Also the root خضر (kh D r) might have another etymology meaning green might not be its original meaning. My interpretation of the word Hýzýr as "God's Chosen" is totally coherent with how Hýzýr is seen as in Turkish culture. He is sometimes seen as "God's adopted child". The expression "draconian laws" comes actually from the proper name Drakōn of an ancient Athenian law-giver (indeed it means "dragon" in Greek). Interestingly enough according to the myth Athens was founded by the hero Erechtheus who was half-snake and half-man and whose name curiously reminds Mongolian word erkhtei - "rightful". Our mind indeed plays odd tricks on us sometimes  ! As for Gheser (Gesar) - he is a Tibetan hero and protagonist of the epic, whose prototype was a Tibetan ruler in early medieval age. This epic was adopted by Mongolian peoples much later (together with Buddhism I think) and is not directly related to Tengriism and even less with Khidr. Murad Adji (because this are his words) often ascribes to Altaic peoples everything he founds amongst them today without any proper investigation of its origin and past cultural influences and based on rather seeming similarity between words. According to "Chulman Tolgau" the first Celestial Messenger (as this is called there) was a dwarf incarnation of the Alp Ijik. He gave to people the calendar (12-year cycle) and the law of class divisions (kings, warriors, priests, cattlemen and farmers). This was during the reign of the first human king Jam (5301-5001 B.C.E.). The name of Ijik is interpreted as "white steed", while his second name (in the next incarnation) is told to be Asparïk which is Iranian compound meaning "horse face/head" or "horse-faced" ( aspa-rukh). Likewise according to V. A. Astvatzaturian's "Hunnic Textbook" the Armenian sources tell a legend about some mythical ancestor/king of the Huns called Luvephej (> Hungarian Lófejű) which also means "horse head" and who lived ca. 5250 B.C.E. which matches the above time-frame. Even though this could be some mythical date calculated (as most calendrical eras) in much later age, I find the accordance of the legend's details from so different sources quite interesting. |
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Post by ancalimon on Oct 5, 2011 5:56:28 GMT 3
Kush and "similar words" are common names meaning ruler. I had a list prepared by a madman (seriously mad that he comiled a list covering all of the world including America) and Merlkir told me that the names were manipulated by the madman. (Merlkir is probably right) The expression "draconian laws" comes actually from the proper name Drakōn of an ancient Athenian law-giver (indeed it means "dragon" in Greek). Interestingly enough according to the myth Athens was founded by the hero Erechtheus who was half-snake and half-man and whose name curiously reminds Mongolian word erkhtei - "rightful". Our mind indeed plays odd tricks on us sometimes ! Yes I guess it's our minds playing tricks on us. I had a theory that Drakōn was actually a Turkic (or a Proto Turkic) person and he was called "Töre Koyan" (law giver, law setter) There is actually another similar anomaly regarding Greeks. In this case there is city named Gordion (named after a man called Gordius) and it's related with Gordion Knot (which surprisingly is Kördüðüm in Turkish). Regarding Hýzýr. He is seen as a Deus-Ex-Machina. He is a time traveler (some kind of Doctor Who) and it's thought that he is someone who is always there when a new country is formed. He takes active role in this. He is there with Alexander The Great, he is there in the Arthurian tale as well. In fact, he is actually the Turkic version of Jesus (not Isa) Here's some information about him: khidr.org/hizir.htmSomehow there is some relation between him and "fish" and "water of life" www.google.com.tr/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=13&ved=0CCsQFjACOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcontrol-z.com%2Fstorage%2FArmstrong%2520-A%2520History%2520of%2520God.doc&rct=j&q=khidr%20deus%20ex%20machina%20turks&ei=QcuLTphHp9ThBIH7ja0J&usg=AFQjCNHg3II3V7TqtwK9iMMnJyiAmwSQFA&cad=rja |
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 6, 2011 2:40:54 GMT 3
Maybe... One of the epithets of the Egyptian god Osiris (related to vegetation and afterlife) was Waj-Ur which means "Great Green One" and if I remember correctly same was the Egyptian name of the Indian ocean. The myth of Osiris is also about the origin of the royal power. I suppose this is some kind of Middle Eastern archetype.
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Post by ancalimon on Oct 7, 2011 3:42:56 GMT 3
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Post by merlkir on Oct 7, 2011 9:44:37 GMT 3
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 19, 2012 22:59:41 GMT 3
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