|
|
Post by ancalimon on Sept 14, 2011 17:30:49 GMT 3
I am under the impression that we've already discussed this particular topic before, but it is worth noting that those theories which derive the meaning of Tengri/Tangra from roots related to "turning or rotating" seem most plausible. It is quite natural to employ the image of revolving sky as observed in astronomical phenomena (and reproduced in rituals and dances) for rendering notions like "time/fate/deity" or "life-force". Still even the pseudo-etymologies can be highly suggestive for instance in spiritual practice. Thus I use the name Tengri/Tangra as mantra for meditation thinking the first syllable while inhaling and the second one while exhaling. The former reminds of tïn ("breath", "spirit") and thus represents receiving the "breath of life" (life-force or spirit), while the latter resembles the root arï- ("to purify", hence arïgh - "pure, sacred") meaning that I purify myself while exhaling the exhausted air. Not that Tengri/Tangra has really meant "Sacred Spirit", but it is a nice association to use in meditation practice (or dhikr - "remembering" to use the Sufi term). That sounds almost romantic  We are like purifiers of life energy.. Still nice catch. Will help me on my "Top Secret" research nevertheless. |
|
|
|
Post by Ardavarz on Sept 15, 2011 3:55:02 GMT 3
Well, that's one way to see it. Either this or it is the life-energy that purifies us. But it is more or less the same - a process of purification of the universe itself. At least thus is the way the Manicheans have seen it and their mythology was very similar to the Tengrian creation myth as I wrote some time before.
The name of Tengri is like ultimate spell since it represents with its four tamgha-letters (T-Ng-R-I) the four phases of every cycle or the process of creation or manifestation of phenomena (like four seasons of the year, four elements of the cosmos etc.). I wrote about this too. In the case of the respiratory cycle it is like that: in-breathe, stop, out-breathe, stop (as contemplated in meditation). It is like the year as the stops correspond to the solstices (= the points between teng and ri). The increase and decrease of daylight throughout the year is like inhaling and exhaling (or separating of light/spirit from darkness/matter in Manichean interpretation). Inhaling is tïn ("breath") and exaling is arï ("to purify") following the rhythm of the divine name ("Teng-Ri" or "Tang-Ra").
The control of breath is the first level of spiritual discipline (equivalent to prāṇāyāma of Indian Yoga and Chinese qi kung). It is symbolized by "riding the horse" (i.e. breath or the "wind-horse", hiimori, attil etc.). The second is "archery" = mental concentration (string is the soul/psyche, arrow - the thought-form, and target - concentration in one point - the goal). And finally the third level is "telling the truth" which is what is called magic or manifestation since you "tell the truth" because your affirmation becomes true. (These three disciplines are attested by Herodotus amongst ancient Persians who at that time still haven't forgot all of their nomadic heritage namely the teachings of Pre-Zoroastrian religion of Saka Mithraism of the Steppe nomads more or less identical with Tengriism.)
Thus to manifest something one applies will (T = fire), thought (Ng = wind), emotion (R = water) and feeling (consciousness, I = earth), concentrating on the aim, thus integrating all four letters of the name Tengri in the process of creation.
|
|
|
|
Post by ancalimon on Sept 15, 2011 11:11:05 GMT 3
it seems like Tengriizm is some kind of religion-the way of life which humans created for themselves because it was good for what they wanted while most other religions seems like they were forced on people because they were thought to be corrupt.
|
|
|
|
Post by ancalimon on Sept 17, 2011 1:56:31 GMT 3
What do you think about this: groznijat.tripod.com/pb_lang/pbl_2_11.htmlThat the Proto-Bulgarians worshipped the sun is reported in the Xth c. "Shestodnev" ('The Six days') of John Exarch. Now we see the words by which the believes were expressed. A special Bulgarian festive bread recalls this old Bulgarian belief, it still contains the three characters of the word JUI. The meaning of symbols on the bread is "Bless us, sun!" The Arab writer el-Balhi reports that the highest God of the old Bulgars was called EDFU. It is close to the eastern Iranian JAD, JED (festive, sunny), and can be translated as Solar God. It must be stresses that both words EDFU and TANGRA (discovered by V. Beshevliev on a Proto-Bulgarian inscription) are Sumerian in origin. The first word originates from the Sumerian terms U (sun) and UD (a holiday), the second one has its roots in the Sumerian Dingir - God, from which a whole series of derivatives sprung out: for example the Celtic words tingir (I swear before God) and tigarna (God), the eastern Iranian word tagra (healthy, blessed by God), and other designations connected in a number of languages with fire and thunderstorms - tandra (lightning) in Sarikoli, tenior (ignited) in Celtic, Donner (thunder) in German etc. Because of the old origin the Sumerian dingir and and the Iranian tandra (possession) spread also among the Altaic peoples, which misled many authors to believe that the Proto-Bulgarians worshipped God with a Turkic word. The Turkic languages, however, cannot correctly explain the meaning of 'Tangra', while the Iranian and Celtic languages prove us that it meant "God of the fire and the thunder". |
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 17, 2011 14:52:49 GMT 3
Just some funny Bulgarian nationalist nonsense.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ardavarz on Sept 18, 2011 3:41:50 GMT 3
Well, I am familiar with those kind of texts. It all begun somewhen in early 1990s with the books of Petar Dobrev who claimed to have deciphered the Proto-Bulgarian script. As most amateurs in this field he uses no proper method, but more like random linguistic associations. It would seems from his writings that Proto-Bulgarian language was not just Iranian as he claims (which is at least possible for some time period) but some odd mixture of various languages from distant lands and eras including Sumerian, Elamitic, Gothic, Celtic, Tocharian, Dravidic and Sanskrit. Then all bunch of epigons emerged taking him as authoritative and concocted even more fantastic "theories". (Bulgarian nationalists are of peculiar kind - they don't care much who they really are, while their major concern is not to be of Turkic origin). Take for instance that alleged passage from Al-Balhi reporting that Bulgarian name for "God" was "Edfu". It is dubious in the first place since such word cannot be written in Arabic script which lacks a letter for "e". Still they all quote it from each other's books indicating the alleged source as: M. Tahir, Le livre de la creation de el-Balhi. Paris, 1899, v. IV, p. 56. www.veda.harekrsna.cz/connections/Vedic-Bulgaria.phpI remember how several years ago it took me a whole night to search the net for this book. Finally I found it in some website of National Library of France where it was available scanned online. But there wasn't such a passage at the indicated page. (See for yourself: gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5460402t/f71.image.r=fars+iran.langFR). In fact there wasn't such passage in the whole volume which I rummaged thoroughly. It seems however that nobody has tried to verify this report even though the book wasn't so unobtainable. And I am realy tired of those folks who lack not only a method but even plain common sense. At the same time these Proto-Bulgarian signs are quite interesting by themselves even though not porperly deciphered yet. www.kroraina.com/pliska/pl_3_12.htmlI wonder whether someone has noticed their striking resemblance with Kazakh tamgas: www.history.kz/ru.phps155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/30_Writing/301Tamgas/TamgasAndUransEn.htmYet Bulgarian signs are centuries earlier! Were they just some cultic symbols or also a part of some writing system? Either way they are quite different from the Orkhon script and only vaguely resemble the other Steppe writings. Thus the whole topic remains mystery so far. |
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 18, 2011 11:28:03 GMT 3
LOL no wonder why I'm not surprised.
Interesting. One thing I'm curious of is why the tribal symbols of the Dulo clan of the Bulgars and the Qayï (Kayı) tribe of the Oghuz are the same. Never found an answer to that.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ardavarz on Sept 19, 2011 0:56:34 GMT 3
The sign combination IYI is indeed most common amongst Bulgarian signs and it does resemble the tamga of Kayï tribe IVI. But whether it is also the sign of Dulo is uncertain - this is only one of the hypotheses. Other propositions also have been made like: sign of eagle or the tree of life, symbol of God (Tangra) or also the name of Sun, even some Christian "monogram of Jesus" (?!). In short - nobody knows what it really means.
From the other hand according to "Jagfar Tarihï" the tamga of Dulo was different - the so-called "baltavar" (like trident upon reverse T which resembles the Orkhon "sh"-sign) representing "bow and axe" as symbol of the alliance between Steppe and Forest tribes.
I have wondered much about this IYI symbol. I think it may have indeed some cultic significance. It resembles Old Chinese sign for "fire", but reversed up-down. Also from the view-point of Gothic runes it may be interpreted as "ice - torch (fire) - ice" which thus symbolizes the unity of opposites (like Chinese Yin-Yang symbol), however it is questionable whether we can apply the meaning of the Gothic runes in this case.
I speculate that middle sign Y represents rather the sacred chalice, cup or cauldron. This reminds the myth about the magic chalice of legendary Kayanian dynasty from Persian and Zoroastrian legends (jam-e Kai Khosrow). This motif about some sacred cup is well attested in Scythian mythological cycle as early as Herodotus' time and also in the Nartic epic (the magic cup Acamonga or Nartamonga). Some scholars like Scott and Littleton believe it to be the source of the Grail legend of Middle Ages. Thus it is possible for this symbol to become an emblem for some royal or priestly clan and maybe Kayï have had some relation with the legendary Kayanians.
|
|
|
|
Post by hjernespiser on Sept 19, 2011 7:33:46 GMT 3
Isn't Bulghar supposed to mean something like "mixed"? Just a funny thought when I was reading Ardavarz's post, but there _are_ creole languages. Unfortunately there is just not enough linguistic data from this time period and area to adequately analyze such an idea.
|
|
|
|
Post by ancalimon on Sept 19, 2011 16:43:38 GMT 3
Isn't Bulghar supposed to mean something like "mixed"? Just a funny thought when I was reading Ardavarz's post, but there _are_ creole languages. Unfortunately there is just not enough linguistic data from this time period and area to adequately analyze such an idea. It sounds to me like "Pol Ogur". ----------------- By the way regarding the word Tengri. Are Dön (turn) and Deðir (cycle-rotation) related ? |
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 19, 2011 21:46:47 GMT 3
I see, interesting.
Btw, we actually do know what the tamgha of Kayı stands for - three arrows and one bow, which is indeed related with the legend of Oghuz Qaghan who distributes a golden bow and some silver arrows among his sons. Arrow represents submission and vassalage while bow is a regalia, symbol of rulership. The thing is that, according to Oghuz tradition recorded by Rashid al-din Fazlullah, most of the Yabghu rulers that succeeded Oghuz Qaghan and his son Kün Qaghan (Gün Khan) were from the Qayï tribe. It is also known that the Kayı was the most prominent among Oghuz tribes, so this is also shown as the main reason behing the Ottoman dynasty claiming descendency from this tribe starting from the 15th century - as a sign and proof of legitimacy.
Bulgha- in Old Turkic means "to mix", and in Turkish the words Bulamak (to smear, to roll in, to bedaub), Bulanık (blurry), etc derive from this word. It was also a loanword in Mongolian. The reason why the Bulgars were named this way is thought to have been a result of their mixture with the Huns who migrated eastwards after Attila's death and merged with the Oghur tribes living there.
No.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ardavarz on Sept 20, 2011 2:34:03 GMT 3
Well, that's again one of the many theories about the meaning of the name "Bulgar". According to another one it should have meant "rebel". There is also a "totemic" theory explaining it with Mongolian word bulghan - sable (which could allude to some relation with the As people). According to Abu Hamid al-Garnati the Volga Bulgarians interpreted the name Bulgar as "wise" or "learned" - perhaps a folk etymology from Turkic bilge - "wise". Indeed it changes the front vowels with back vowels, but same is the case with the name Tangra vs. common Turkic Tengri so maybe we're dealing with a pattern here.
One of the theories that I find especially interesting derives Bulgar from *bel-oghur - "the Five Oghurs" (= tribes or arrows) likewise Hungar comes from On-oghur - "Ten Oghurs" (*bel here is Hunnic, i.e. Oghuric pronunciation of Turkic beš - "five"). This was first proposed in 19th century by B. Munkacsi as "five Ugors" (according to an obsolete theory about Uralic origin of Bulgars), then later in mid-20th century O. Pritsak interpreted it as "five Huns" (*beloghon) while Hungar/Onogur as "Ten Huns" (*onoghon). The five tribes (oghurs) referred here are those five clans who fought under Dulu (Dulo) against Nushibi during the civil war in Western Qaghanate in late 6th century. Pritsak also relates them to the noble clans mentioned in the List of Bulgarian Kings who are also five in number (Dulo, Ermi, Vokil, Ukil and Ugain). This reminds also the old Xiongnu tradition of the five most noble families - the royal clan and four others from which the Shanyu's wives were taken.
This symbolism of the arrow meaning tribe/clan or vassalage is particularly interesting (oq - "arrow" and oghur/oghuz - "tribe" seem to be related). This is a common archetype in many Steppe cultures. Thus the bundle of arrows was symbol of unity sent by Chinese Emperor to the Qaghan, same is found in Mongolian legend about the sons of Alan-Goa. There is a similar Bulgarian legend about Kan Kurt-Kubrat and his five (again!) sons even though the part with the arrows lacks in the Byzantine account. Probably the most ancient known version is the Scythian one related by Herodotus. It's about Scythian king Ariantas who wanted to take the census of his people and asked for an arrow from all his subjects. Later he melted them in a cauldron. And Scythian kings have worn a cup in their belts.
All these symbols - arrows/bow and cauldron/cup - seem to be ubiquitous and more or less substitutes as regalia symbolizing tribal unity and sacral power. Thus pehaps the signs IVI and IYI also belong here (arrows+bow and arrow+challice/cup/cauldron?). There is much similarity between Oghuz epic and Scythian cycle. The test for the Scythian king was to bend the bow - thus the youngest son of Targitaos-Heracles become the ancestor of the tribe of Royal Scythians. And his Scythian name according to Herodotus was Kolaxais (< *Xora-xšaya) which also means "Sun-King" just as Kün-Qaghan in Oghuz legend. Which reminds me - maybe also Targitaos is derived from tighra - "arrow", likewise Oghuz can be from oq - "arrow".
|
|
Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
|
Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 20, 2011 3:21:42 GMT 3
According some Turkologists the name Bulgar of the Turkic tribe could have been named after the Turkic people's favorite meal, the Bulgur pilavi (also called bulghur or bulgar). Bulgur pilavi is made from several different species and wheat.
It seemed like some people of the Hun's descendants really liked the Bulgur pilavi and hence a confederation of tribes started to form amongst them. They called themselves the 'Bulgar Turks'.
After some time they become more independent and they had to choose a leader, a leader that was very strong in combat, charismatic and at the same time could also cook the best bulgur pilavi.
The people chose Kubrat Qaghan as their leader, a man with the best skills of swordsmanship amongst them and the best cooker of the bulgur pilavi.
It was also not a coincidence that he was also the leader of the Dolu tribe, that has been split up from the Ashina clan.
He established a great empire. He named it the Bulgar Qaghanate, which he named after their national meal; the bulgur pilavi.
Bulgars were specialized, obviously, in making the BEST bulgur pilavi in the world.
I hope this helps.
|
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 20, 2011 19:31:21 GMT 3
That is quite interesting indeed.
LOL I was quite pissed off at some other stuff today, but this made me laugh.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ardavarz on Sept 21, 2011 1:59:04 GMT 3
Yeah, that's funny ;D.
But as I said there are many theories, for instance: "city people" (from Turkic balïq/baluq) or "fortress people" (from Roman burgi - "frontier fortresses" < Greek pyrgos, cf. also Arabian burj - "tower" and Arabian name of Danube Bulgars - Burjān), other thought bulgar was a social designation (for higher or lower class depending on which etymology is chosen - Turkic or Latin), there are also folk etymologies like "wolf people" (referring to common Altaic myth about wolf origin, but from an Indo-European word for "wolf" - bulga/vḷk) or "good people" (from Slavic blag - "good") etc. Indeed nobody knows for sure what this name really meant!
What is interesting is that there is a persistent tradition in different and independent medieval sources suggesting that this was not the original name of those people, but rather a nickname. For instance that Volga Bulgarian legend reported by Abu Hamid al-Garnati which I mentioned in my previous post maitains that the name "Bulgar" was adopted after converting to Islam, while according to Danube Bulgarian apocryphal chronicle "Vision of Isaiah" this was the name by which "the third part" of the Cumans were called after converting to Christianirty, i.e. in both cases the native folklor relates it to the act of adopting a foreign religion and loosing their original Steppe identity. Even though that historically this is not correct the legend itself is significant all the more because it has originated from the natives. The Syrian chronicles also report another legend according to which Bulgarians were one of three tribes from Central Asia or "Inner Scythia" (one of the ohers being Khazars) namely that one which settled as Byzantine federates in Moesia and was called this way by the Romans. Of course, all these are legends, but still they should have meant something.
|
|
We are like purifiers of life energy.. Still nice catch. Will help me on my "Top Secret" research nevertheless.
