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Post by benzin on Jun 2, 2011 22:01:31 GMT 3
Otherwise, mordovian konda, finnish kunta is related to hungarian konda and not had wich means army. I think its evident enough that konda is related more to konda than to had. Im not sure who made this list had any kind of hungarian knowledge at all.
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Post by Ardavarz on Jun 3, 2011 3:30:01 GMT 3
To add "makara" in Turkish means well... reel (the one which you roll rope around) and also a device consisting of wheels, cogwheels which is used to lift weights. "Maðara", "magera" means "a cave". (probably-supposedly from Arabic) ------ The word "Mara" comes from the Proto-Indo-European root *mer meaning to die, and so it is related to the European Mara, the Slavic Marzanna and the Latvian Māra.[2] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_%28demon%29ProtoTurkic *buŕ- / *boŕ- means to destroy, to ruin-spoil,to corrupt, perish, to break I was completely forgotten this word  - "makara" in Bulgarian also means "reel". Also there is a famous cave in Bulgaria called Magura  . I am not sure about etymologies of both words. Māra ("Destroyer, Evil One") is the lord of this world (Kāmaloka) in Buddhism and something like a devil personifying passions. He is obvilously identical with Iranian Ahriman, Tengriist Šurale, Bogomils' Satanael and the "God" of the Abrahamites (Yahveh). Ancient Gnostics and later Manicheans, Tengrians (Madjars) and Bogomils believed he was creator of this lower world while the True God is a Deus Absconditus of spirirtual world called Abraxas, Zurvan, Brahma, Tengri etc. ardavarz : did you read complete djagfar tarihi ? Yes, I just haven't enough time to find all these quotes. Thanks for the contribution! These data definitely show that dragon cult was part of Tengriist beliefs and was widespread amongst Steppe peoples. Subash, a Bardjilian noble, together with Kurbat was a hostage in the Iber-Seber for some time, and has accepted Tengrianism (“Madjarianism“). Together with Kurbat, Subash tried to introduce Madjarianism in the Bardjil, but Husrau broke his plans ? This is a story about the origin of Mazdakism in early 6th century. The teaching of Mazdak (here - Subash) surelly had lot in common with beliefs of some Tengrian sects in Volga Bulgaria. So did the teaching of Bogomil whom "Jagfar Tārihï" calls with Persian name Khudayār (it has same meaning like the Slavic one - "Beloved of God"). It's interesting also that Tengriist creation myth told in the second volume of "Jagfar Tārihï" is very similar and structurally almost identical with the Manichean version. A son of of Kurbat Küngrat (“Kubrat“) he was nicknamed “Atilkuse“, i.e “Beardless Atilla“. In reply to the spread of this nickname, he began to call himself “Madjar“, i.e. “Sacrificer, Self-sacrificing“. please note, kese (here kesu) means bald in hungarian. in Turkish and Bulgarian, kuse in Persian also means "beardless". But I am not familiar with the etymology of this word. "Atilkuse" from other hand resembles geographical term "Atelkouzu" (between rivers) supposedly original land of Majars by Constantine Porphyrogenitus. djagfar tarihi equals massagetes with madjars, they live in nothern caucasus, and divides into two parts, the white hungarians goes north and mix up with türk elements and called sebers and sabans later on. the kara massagets are the ones who later be called Saklans, they are a mix of Szekler and Alan tribes, leaded by Szeklers and they come to the carpathian basin long before the white hungarians. djafgar tarihi also mentions that The hunnic confederation is leaded by Szeklers but didnt equal the Szeklers (kara-massagets) with the huns. This is an interesting interpretation. I am not sure if Masguts and Massagetae are the same. They could be... Ancient Persian cuneiform inscriptions have enumerated many Saka tribes, but never mentioned the name "Massagetae" which is strange. From the other hand the Armenian chronicles spoke about Maskuts in Northern Caucasus in early Middle Ages. Were they the same? In Alanic/Ossetian mäsyg means "tower", in plural - mäsgutä ("towers"). The tower-houses are specific to that area. From other hand Arabian word for "tower" is burj - plural burūj, but with Iranian plural suffix -ān (it's former Genitive plural used for animate objects) it becomes burjān (like in Iran, Turan etc.). It would mean something like "people of the towers" or "land of the towers". And indeed according to "Jagfar Tārihï" the Caucasian domain of Asparukh was called Burjan, which name later was conveyed to Danube Bulgaria (Qara-Burjān, i.e. Western/Black Burjan). In fact there is no explanation why Danube Bulgarians were called Burjans in medieval Islamic sources. This could be a possibility. It could explain also why some medieval chronicles tend to associate Bulgars with biblical Meshech. (Most of the Yapheth's descendants obviously correspond to Steppe ethnonyms probably known from the time of Scythian invasion in Middle East in 7th century B.C.E.). Actually Németh Gyula proposed that Magyar was made up of two words: Mansi (one of the Ugric peoples still living in Siberia) + Är (Turkic word for "Person", "Man"). It can be explained from Scythian language too: from madu - "honey" and aryn - "to obtain, to find", so "honey-finder". It could be an euphemistic name for the bear totem (cf. Slavic medwed' - "honey-eater"). Similar Scythian names are Gōar ("cow-finder"), Xessagaros ("six-deer-finder") etc. The legendary brother of Magyar was Hunor (eponym of the Huns) which name could be compared with Scythian Hounaros ("gifted" from hunara - "gift, talent"). Another possibility is hu-nar (lit. "good man"). And finally Menroth in my opinion is identified in medieval sources with biblical Nemrod just for convenience of the Christians. Otherwise this is probably the same common archetype of the ancestor-king-legislator who becomes judge in the afterlife (I wrote about this in a previous post in connection with the myth of Erlik, Manu-Yama etc.). In this case it's probable manu - "man" (or mānyu - spirit) and ratu - "judge" (from Avestan). Anyway, in a multilingual society like the Steppe culture many different interpretations can be equally right. There is never only one truth . |
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Post by ancalimon on Jun 3, 2011 5:30:25 GMT 3
ardavarz:
That "aryn" in Turkish might be related with:
ARA: to seek for, to search, to try to find, between
ARAN: to search for something with no idea where to look.
ARI: bee
ARIN: to become pure, to purify (maybe related to bees purifying flowers to make them honey)
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Post by hjernespiser on Jun 3, 2011 7:17:53 GMT 3
Aryn (арын) means face or page in Tuvan.
Benzin,
The Starling Uralic database is composed mostly from Karoly Redei's Uralic etymological dictionary.
If you notice, the Mansi cognate for "had" also carries a connotation of an army. IIRC, the word in Hungarian used to be applied to some sort of societal organization and not the narrow definition of today's meaning for army. Nomadic peoples had built-in military logistics because their whole society was mobile. They didn't have to worry about things like supply trains.
It isn't so easy to say words are related just by looking at their modern forms. How do we know tenger and deniz and tanri and deer are related? They look nothing alike!
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Post by hjernespiser on Jun 3, 2011 7:25:22 GMT 3
And yes, practically all ethnic self-names come from some word related to "man" or "people" or "men". Uralic has quite a few different words related to that concept. There are exceptions and variations though. Take for example "Turk".
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Post by ancalimon on Jun 3, 2011 8:47:06 GMT 3
any idea about the etymology of Italian maccherone?
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Post by benzin on Jun 3, 2011 12:06:44 GMT 3
ardavarz : Japhets descendants.. interesting names isnt it.
some correction : hunor cant divide as hu-nor if its a hungarian word, its hun-or, or hun-ar
madu as honey : well I dont know, it might be, honey in hungarian is méz.
also the name of the Huns according to Szekler chronicles is Hunny, wich might also relates to honey.
For me it sounds more logic that the core of the word magyar is mag. It means the core or seed. So magár means flood of the seeds.
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Post by benzin on Jun 3, 2011 17:55:54 GMT 3
ardavarz : did you find this in djagfar tarihi ? Its really on topic as it writes the rules of tengrism.
And the representatives of one of the aggressive currents in the simple folks' Toré, “madjars“, were saying this. Tangra created only the Invisible world, and all the Visible world and the man was created with His sanction by Shurale. Only the man's soul is created by Tangra. For these souls to rise to the Sky, to Tangra, after a death, and to receive from the Creator an eternal pleasure in the Invisible World, all carnal matters should be rejected completely, and a full equality between people should be kept. There should not be a submission of one man to another, or a state, officials, army, envy, money, wealth and poverty, personal property. Even the wives should be common. Should not also be prayer leads (priests), buildings for prayers and obligatory symbols of Tangra, for everyone is obliged to pray Tangra himself, anywhere and without any conditionalities, instead of charging unknown people with prayers, possible sinners (whose prayers are void because of their crimes). Madjars forbade wars in the name of the rulers, and killing of the animals, which did not know inequality, but killed the rich and hung Kam-Boyans, saying: “If you are very outstanding, clever and all-knowing, than serve Tangra himself, instead of the Shurale's servants!“ The Madjars said: “Good people are only the continuously altruistic [to others] people. From there comes their name “Madjars“, “Sacrificing“. “And our aristocrats called Madjars “Elbegens“, “Rooks“ and “Ayiyars“ (pronounced Ah-i-yar - Translator Note).
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Post by Ardavarz on Jun 4, 2011 2:29:34 GMT 3
ardavarz : Japhets descendants.. interesting names isnt it. Yes, it is usually assumed that Gomer (GMR) represents Kimmerians and Ashkenaz (AShKNZ) represents Scythians. But then what is Riphath (RIPhTh)? I would guess it has something to do with mythical Riphean mountains (Greek Rhipai = Ural?). Then could Togarmah (TGRMH) be Tochar and Magog (MGVG) - Magyar? But how they have become known in ancient Middle East? I think Meshech (MShCh) could be related to Massagetae (since -tä is Scythian plural suffix, the singular form should be *Massak). Here is another curious piece: "Woe to me that I sojourned in Meshech; I dwell with the tents of Kedar (QDR)!" (Psalm 120; 5). Are here really the Kidarites mentioned? But they have emerged a millenium later. It is obvious anyway that this is some warlike tribe of nomads (living in tents). So maybe these Old Testament texts were not as old as they have been thought to be... some correction : hunor cant divide as hu-nor if its a hungarian word, its hun-or, or hun-ar madu as honey : well I dont know, it might be, honey in hungarian is méz. also the name of the Huns according to Szekler chronicles is Hunny, wich might also relates to honey. For me it sounds more logic that the core of the word magyar is mag. It means the core or seed. So magár means flood of the seeds. According to V. A. Astvatzaturian the suffix -r in Hunnic forms diminutive, mady means "great" or "king" and chun means "man" or "warrior". Thus from this point of view Magyar would mean "little king", and Hunor - "little warrior". It is interesting that J. J. M. de Groot has reconstructed the Chinese designation Xiongnu (Hung-nŏ) as "Hungnor or Hunor, Hungnoch or Hunoch" (Die Hunnen der Vorchristlichen Zeit, 1921). |
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Post by Ardavarz on Jun 4, 2011 3:33:51 GMT 3
ardavarz : did you find this in djagfar tarihi ? Its really on topic as it writes the rules of tengrism. And the representatives of one of the aggressive currents in the simple folks' Toré, “madjars“, were saying this. Tangra created only the Invisible world, and all the Visible world and the man was created with His sanction by Shurale. Only the man's soul is created by Tangra. For these souls to rise to the Sky, to Tangra, after a death, and to receive from the Creator an eternal pleasure in the Invisible World, all carnal matters should be rejected completely, and a full equality between people should be kept. There should not be a submission of one man to another, or a state, officials, army, envy, money, wealth and poverty, personal property. Even the wives should be common. Should not also be prayer leads (priests), buildings for prayers and obligatory symbols of Tangra, for everyone is obliged to pray Tangra himself, anywhere and without any conditionalities, instead of charging unknown people with prayers, possible sinners (whose prayers are void because of their crimes). Madjars forbade wars in the name of the rulers, and killing of the animals, which did not know inequality, but killed the rich and hung Kam-Boyans, saying: “If you are very outstanding, clever and all-knowing, than serve Tangra himself, instead of the Shurale's servants!“ The Madjars said: “Good people are only the continuously altruistic [to others] people. From there comes their name “Madjars“, “Sacrificing“. “And our aristocrats called Madjars “Elbegens“, “Rooks“ and “Ayiyars“ (pronounced Ah-i-yar - Translator Note). Yes, this is similar to the extreme egalitarianism of Mazdakite and Bogomil movements. But it is told also that: "The real Toré says: all people are born equal, but subsequently, by the will of the Creator, they receive different inclinations and start to engage in different affairs. By virtue of the abilities granted by the Creator, and the opportunities, people become richer or poorer, but they all should honestly engage in their business, not to be envious and not to offend each other." s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/10_History/Djagfar_Tarihi/Volume3/DjagfarTarihiV3P6En.htmVery interesting is also the creation myth presented there: "Once, Tama-Tarkhan ["Lord of Darkness"] decided to become a ruler of it all, and went against the Alps [spirits] who refused to obey him. He swallowed many Alps, but those who escaped asked in fear for a help from Tangra. Tangra armed with lightning tridents the Alps Saban Mardukan and Kubar, and sent them against the rebellious Alp. Kubar's “horse“, a bull with whom he went to the fight, failed, and therefore Saban overpassed his brother and struck Tama-Tarkhan with the trident. With the help of Kubar, who appeared in time, Saban managed to hack Tama-Tarkhan onto three parts. One part remained as a darkness, another became the Lower Visible Sky, the third became a World ocean (“Chulman dingeze“). By the will of Tangra Kubar and Saban took a form of the geese (or ducks), and caught sand-grains in the water, from which they built the Earth. While they did it, in the air (between the Heaven and Earth) from the sparks of the lightning tridents, by the will of Tangra, came the souls (which flew in the air, but were coming to rest in the Earth as gorgeous birds). The Alps, swallowed by him, came out from the ruptured cave-guts of Tama-Tarkhan, and from the clay legs of the Alp of darkness, Shurale made figures of people, hoping to amplify with their help his power. But the figures were ugly and lifeless. Then Shurale asked Alpbika Ulyat (who was able, in an image of a winged mouse, to reach the high tent of Djam-Buran in the Invisible Sky-World) to steal a towel from the bath of the forefather of the Alps. “Djam-Buran, it is said, is very handsome, and the towel with which he wipes retains his features. With the help of this towel I shall transfer the beauty of Birgün to people, and I insult him for his dislike of us“, Shurale told her. Ulyat stole the towel and dropped it to Earth, and Shurale wiped the figures of people with the towel, and they became beautiful. To make people live, Shurale caught souls-birds and inserted them in the figures. They came to life, and the people appeared. But Tangra did not allowed that Shurale took hold of the people, their souls remained belonging to Tangra, and after their death they again fly up above the Earth, and Shurale gets only lifeless rotting bodies. Birgün complained to Tangra about Shurale and Ulyat, and the Creator disfigured them externally, and in addition took away Ulyat 's wings. Because the flesh of the people is made out of the body of Tama-Tarkhan, the carnal desires of people and the acts to execute these desires are unworthiness and evil. These desires and acts spoil the souls of the people. After a death of a person his soul is examined between the heaven and earth. If the soul has little dirt, the soul is cleansed and when pure it rises to the Sky. And if a soul is loaded with the dirt of evil, it falls into the underground world (Tama) and turn into malicious spirits, the Joregs. Therefore it is necessary to live so that lowly thoughts and acts were as few as possible." This is very similar to the Manichean cosmology even though the latter is more elaborated: "When the King of Darkness sought to invade the Realm of Light, the Father of Greatness adopted countermeasures, which, through a series of “evocations,” ultimately led to the creation of the world. In order to understand subsequent developments, it is important to keep in mind that all these evocations, or creations, were derived from the Father, that is, the original Light itself, and identical with it... The Father of Greatness evoked from himself the Mother of Life...who in turn evoked the First (or Primal) Man... When the powers of Darkness came against the World of Light, First Man and his sons offered themselves to them as a meal... The five sons of First Man were then literally swallowed or devoured by the five sons of Darkness, with the result that a part of the Light became imprisoned in the Darkness. The First Man, however, was only rendered unconscious by the Darkness and soon regained consciousness and pleaded with the Father of Greatness for the rescue of the Light. This plea led to the Second Creation, of the Friend of the Lights ..., the Great Builder ..., and the Living Spirit... The Mother of Life and the Living Spirit together rescued the First Man. First, the Living Spirit called down to the First Man; his call split the darkness like a sword and uncovered the First Man, who responded to it. ... The call ...and the response...ascended to the Mother of Life, who donned the response, “her beloved son,” and the Living Spirit, who donned the call. (According to Ebn al-Nadīm the call “became another god,” the Enthymesis of life, Mid. Pers. handēšišn ī zīndag, the power that at the end of the world will gather the remaining Light and arrange for it to be brought back to the Realm of Light; its opposite, the Enthymesis of death, is equal to the greedy spirituality of matter; see below.) The Living Spirit and the Mother of Life, assuming the function of demiurges, then formed from the bodies of the slain demons eight worlds and from their skins eleven heavens (ten spheres and the zodiac). Other demons were imprisoned in the worlds and the heavens, and the task of watching over and protecting the regions of the world was assigned to the five sons of the Living Spirit... At the request of the Mother of Life, the First Man, and the Living Spirit, the Father of Greatness then called forth the Third Creation, the Third Messenger... At the conclusion of a series of cannibalistic and sexual acts among the demonic creations Ašaqlūn and Nebrōʾēl (Namrāʾēl; see āsrēštār), incarnations of the principle of Lust itself (Mid. Pers. āz, q.v.), which was also identical with matter (Greek hylē), fashioned the first two people in the image of the Third Messenger, Adam (Mid. Pers. noxwīr, lit. “first man”) and Eve (Mid. Pers. farrahān srīgar, lit. “the female of the glories”). In this way, through continuous fragmentation of the Light Soul by means of procreation, they endeavored to render redemption more difficult and to keep it forever imprisoned in the demonic creation, the human body. The Light Soul was also called World Soul, because imprisoned in the world, and Living Soul or Living Self (Mid. Pers. grīw zīndag, etc.), in contrast to matter, which belonged to death; the human body, however, was called “corpse” (Mid. Pers. nasā, contrasted to gyān “soul”; see, e.g., Boyce, Reader, p. 75). In the same way that the Living Spirit aroused and redeemed the First Man, Jesus the Splendor (Syr. Išōʿ Zīwānā, Mid. Pers. Xradešahryazad), an emanation of the Third Messenger, then awakened Adam from his deathlike sleep and showed him the way to salvation. With this event the history of mankind began." www.iranica.com/articles/cosmogony-iiiThus we can establish the following correspondences: Tangra = Father of Greatness (Zurvan, Brahma); Tama-Tarkhan = King of Darkness (Ahriman); The swallowed Alps = the First Man (Hormazd) and his sons (the Five Resplendent Gods); Turan (Umai) = Mother of Life - only in Tengriist version she wasn't involved in the war of the gods, instead there was involved her son Kubar, probably identical with Manichean Great Builder; thus Kubar = Great Builder Saban Mardukan = Living Spirit; (In the pantheon of "Chulmah Tolgau" there is a third brother of Kubar and Saban - Chulman, the spirit of waters and friend of mankind, who can thus be identified with Manichean Friend of the Lights); Jam-Buran, Birgün = the Third Messenger (and maybe also the First Man?) (Mithra); Shurale and Ulyat-Kuzge ("Mouse"), children of Tama-Tarkhan, creators of mankind = Ašaqlūn and Nebrōʾēl, children of the King of Darkness, creators of mankind (identified with Yahveh and Shekinah); First humans = Adam and Eve. There is indeed allusions in medieval Islamic sources that a Bulgarian Manichean community has existed in Middle Asia. But I am not sure if those similarities in mythology were due to Manichean influence upon the Tengriism or the other way around. |
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Post by Ardavarz on Jun 4, 2011 4:31:20 GMT 3
I just remembered something - several years ago there were some rumours about carvings on tombstones found in Macedonia which the archaeologists related to Manicheanism (unfortunately I don't know any details). Also I have came across comparisons of Hungarian traditional beliefs with the Manichean ones. Maybe all these are related to this topic.
Sorry for all the blabbering today - it's just that this particular subject is very fascinating to me and it's so catchy...
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Post by ancalimon on Jun 4, 2011 6:34:59 GMT 3
"Woe to me that I sojourned in Meshech; I dwell with the tents of Kedar (QDR)!" (Psalm 120; 5) Please could you explain this QDR-Keder ? What does it mean? Any relationship with Khidr ? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KhidrTurkic people are obsessed with him while it seems like Arabs do not care at all. Quran mentions him in the chapter "Al-Kahf (Maðara:Cave)". He is teaching Moses. Who can be that superior that he is the teacher of prophets? According to Wikipedia article, he is considered a parallel to Saint George who supposedly killed the dragon. Hizir is the last-minute rescuer from disaster, a deus ex machina, when all other assistance, natural and supernatural, has failed. Among the many rescues by Hizir that we were told about, one of the most impressive occurred during the Korean War. This one's pretty funny:  When I was serving in the Turkish Brigade in Korea [our informant recalled], a Turkish soldier from my village was confronted by four Chinese soldiers who ordered him to lay down his arms or they would kill him. The young man shouted, ‘Ya Hizir!” and Hizir appeared as 100 soldiers to the eyes of the four Chinese. They were so frightened that the Turk was able to take all four of them prisoner. The Americans rewarded him for his bravery that day, and he sent home 40,000 liras to Isis village on behalf of Hizir. A large bridge was built there with this money.[1] khidr.org/hizir.htmHe is also Islam's Patron Saint of Cannabis in India  |
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Post by benzin on Jun 4, 2011 11:51:54 GMT 3
ardavarz : türkmen uses this word for teacher and teachings :
magaryf : education
magaryfchy : educator
magaryf : enlightement
Any explanations unless magyars teached them to something ?
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Post by benzin on Jun 4, 2011 12:33:05 GMT 3
Meshech ? It reminds me to the name of Mecsek (Metsech) mountains in southern hungary. The origin of the name is unknown, the scholars can only agree in its not of turkic origin.
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Post by benzin on Jun 4, 2011 12:39:47 GMT 3
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- "makara" in Bulgarian also means "reel". Also there is a famous cave in Bulgaria called Magura 
. I am not sure about etymologies of both words.
