Tengrizm, Tengerizm, Tecrizm, ....

[benzin]

What I wonder about is why tenger means see in Hungarian language and means god in each other steppe language. I dont think this is a coincidence.

[ancalimon]

May 27, 2011 12:43:35 GMT 3 benzin said:

What I wonder about is why tenger means see in Hungarian language and means god in each other steppe language. I dont think this is a coincidence.

It might be related to sky being called teker (wheel) and to see is "gör" in Turkish.

Tanýk means "the one who saw", "eyewitness" in Turkish.

I think human eye can be comparable to "teker".

What I mean is that both "tang,teng" and "ri,er,ra,ar" might have been related to "to see, eye". The shape of the eye is the same as the sky seen from a single point as well.

[benzin]

I meant sea not see, sorry. Nice fantasy anyway

[ancalimon]

May 27, 2011 17:02:42 GMT 3 benzin said:

I meant sea not see, sorry. Nice fantasy anyway

In that case, it's apparent isn't it? The sea has the same shape as the sky. And water keeps coming from the sky as rain.

[Ardavarz]

May 27, 2011 12:43:35 GMT 3 benzin said:

What I wonder about is why tenger means see in Hungarian language and means god in each other steppe language. I dont think this is a coincidence.

I have thought about this too. My explanation is that this refers to the ancient notion of "celestial waters". It can be traced back at least to Sumerian mythology. There was a cosmic freshwater ocean (Sumerian Ab.Zu) opposed to terrestrial salt-water sea. This idea later was adopted in Genesis and Quran.

In fact it seems that Ural-Altaic words for "sea" and "sky" have derived from a common root. If we consider r~z mutation and the words for "sea" like Tatar dingez, Turkish deniz, Mongolian tengis etc. it seems plausible.

The Polynesian deity Tangaroa ("Great Tanga" = Hawaii Kanaloa) who some relate to Tangra/Tengri (even though I am not sure there is a connection) is also a god of sea. But on the islands of Tonga, Samoa and Tahiti he is also the creator of the world.

In Vedas there is the god Varuṇa - lord of waters and cosmic order, etymologically related to Greek Ouranos - "sky". His Iranian counterpart is the celestial god Ahura-Mazda whose Scythian equivalent Thagi-Masada was identified by Herodotus with Poseidon. Mazda/Masada means "Great Wise One" and so we may compare this Indo-Iranian deity with Sumerian Enki (= Babylonian Ea) who also was god of wisdom and lord of Ab.Zu (Babylonian Apsu) or cosmic waters.

Thus this seems to be a very widespread common archetype.

[ancalimon]

Hungarian tµk£r means 'mirror'. Maybe there is some relation. The sea reflecting the sky maybe?

www.ieed.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\alt\turcet&first=1&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&text_meaning=&method_meaning=substring&text_rusmean=&method_rusmean=substring&text_atu=&method_atu=substring&text_krh=&method_krh=substring&text_trk=&method_trk=substring&text_tat=&method_tat=substring&text_chg=&method_chg=substring&text_uzb=&method_uzb=substring&text_uig=&method_uig=substring&text_sjg=&method_sjg=substring&text_azb=&method_azb=substring&text_trm=&method_trm=substring&text_hak=&method_hak=substring&text_shr=&method_shr=substring&text_alt=&method_alt=substring&text_khal=&method_khal=substring&text_chv=&method_chv=substring&text_jak=&method_jak=substring&text_dolg=&method_dolg=substring&text_tuv=&method_tuv=substring&text_tof=&method_tof=substring&text_krg=&method_krg=substring&text_kaz=&method_kaz=substring&text_nogx=&method_nogx=substring&text_bas=&method_bas=substring&text_blkx=&method_blkx=substring&text_gagx=&method_gagx=substring&text_krmx=&method_krmx=substring&text_klpx=&method_klpx=substring&text_sal=&method_sal=substring&text_qum=&method_qum=substring&text_reference=&method_reference=substring&text_any=tekirme&method_any=substring&sort=number

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Actually Talât Tekin also suggested in his A Grammar of Orkhon Turkic that Old Turkic Täŋri was related with the concept of Old Turkic Tägir- meaning "to turn, to surround".

[benzin]

Hungarian : tükör - Chuvash : Töker - Azeri : Teker all means mirror. Old Hungarian has an other word based on old latin word specula (mirror) for watching the sky, spekulál is to watch the the night sky with mirrors.

[benzin]

I still dont see who Tek or Tak became Tang or Teng. how does k became ng, is there any other example for that ? Tak may became tag, but not tang. There should be probably other examples both in turkic and hungarian if there is any.

[ancalimon]

May 29, 2011 0:30:41 GMT 3 benzin said:

I still dont see who Tek or Tak became Tang or Teng. how does k became ng, is there any other example for that ? Tak may became tag, but not tang. There should be probably other examples both in turkic and hungarian if there is any.

I think Turkic languages are a bit lawless when it comes to how words changed.

For example:

tangýndý:
er baþýn tangýndý. (the soldier tied-rolled something to his head)

in Turkish it becomes.

er baþýna takýndý.


I think tang* here is related to rolling-surrounding (as in clothes surround your body) as our Qaðan told us.

[hjernespiser]

I don't have much of a good reference for historical sound changes in Turkic languages. In the Old Turkic grammar book I have, it makes brief mention about an ŋ ~ g sound change in Orkhon Turkic and talked a little about how ŋ was sometimes spelled with letters representing NK or even K depending upon the writing system. Didn't seem too helpful though because the book isn't about historical sound changes across Turkic languages. So, for example, there's nothing about Ogur/Chuvash sound changes.

All I've been able to find basically confirms the idea that both the words for sea (deniz) and god (tanri) in Turkish come from the same root word. The Starling etymological database is somewhat unhelpful as well because it doesn't have a lot of these words. I only found tanri. No mirror or deniz.

[hjernespiser]

Starling:
Tanri - Proto-Turkic: *teŋri / *taŋrɨ

From wiktionary:
Deniz - From Old Turkic teŋiz (“lake, sea”), from Proto-Turkic *teŋiŕ.
Tenger - From Proto-Turkic *tängiz, cognate with Turkish deniz; compare Turkish Tanrı (god of the blue sky), Mongolian тэнгэр (tenger, “heaven”): perhaps from the blue expanse.

[hjernespiser]

You guys have seen this before, right? ;D I mean, can't have a superhero named Thor without these guys!



marvel.wikia.com/Tenger

The Tenger are a race of supernatural beings worshiped as Gods by the Mongolian and Turkic people of central Asia (though they appeared to have smaller groups of worshipers as early as the Hyborian Era). They were presumably spawned by the Demiurge in response to early man's subconscious need for gods.

The Tenger originated with Tengri, the god of the Eternal Blue Sky who would become the namesake of the pantheon. He predated all things in central Asia, and coupled with Gaea to create the god Erlik. Erlik, however, proved to be an evil being, and Tengri banished him to the underworld, where he became the god of death. Tengri replaced Erlik as architect of the Earthly plane with Ulgen. The banished Erlik descended upon humanity with sin and disease, even finding a small group of worshipers during the Hyborian Age centuries before the other gods became popular.

This is entertaining too:

It is generally believed that Ulgen is actually an avatar or incarnation of Jehovah, the Judeo-Christian God from Abrahamic Religion.

Ulgen is the Great Spirit of the Altai Tartars of Mongolia west of China. He created mankind from mud of the world, but one of his creations, Erlik, saw how he had created men and created for himself a number of misshaped, grotesque creatures. Ulgen stripped Erlik of his immortality and imprisoned him in the underworld where he became the devil, leading mankind into sin. Ulgen, however, sent his son, Maidere to earth in order that he would teach mankind to respect and follow Ulgen, but Erlik killed Maidere, the blood of Ulgen's son used to purify the earth. Ulgen later appeared at a gathering of the Godheads of Earth to discuss the threat of the Celestials.

[aynur]

I've always been interested in Tengrism. There are a lot of similarities between Finnish folk religion and Tengrism, actually! The bear and the deer are almost in the same position as the wolf and the horse in Tengrism.

Isn't it more about being in balance with nature and the surrounding world much like Taoism, too?

[ancalimon]

May 29, 2011 16:01:07 GMT 3 aynur said:

I've always been interested in Tengrism. There are a lot of similarities between Finnish folk religion and Tengrism, actually! The bear and the deer are almost in the same position as the wolf and the horse in Tengrism.

Isn't it more about being in balance with nature and the surrounding world much like Taoism, too?

Yes... Even words sound too similar

Tengri > Denge (Turkish - balance)

Actually it's the concept of balance and how it was seen in the past we should research. (Both the balance of nature and the physical balance)