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Post by benzin on May 29, 2011 18:37:16 GMT 3
same in hungarian about the word for balance,almost the same as tenger, tengely (pronounce:tengey) is the name of balance axle, it also has the meaning of main, central.
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Post by benzin on May 29, 2011 18:40:30 GMT 3
hungarian words wich may have a relation to the turkic words mentioned before.
iz from teniz may have a relation to hungarian íz ? wich is the old word for sweet, not in use nowadays.
the word for water is víz wich also may related to this..
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Post by ancalimon on May 29, 2011 20:02:31 GMT 3
same in hungarian about the word for balance,almost the same as tenger, tengely (pronounce:tengey) is the name of balance axle, it also has the meaning of main, central. I think that tengely could be related to the + sign in a circle on the central top part of Turkic-Mongolian Yurts. It definitely has something to do with balance as well. After all it is a balanced sign. Male and female signs meeting each other at a single point. (V and reversed V) But they are bound by a circle. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AxleIn Turkish denge:balance, dengeli:balanced, balance axle is "Dingil". Now; is there a relationship between axle and the + sign in a circle or Teker (wheel). Another thing comes to my mind; the labrys. It is seen as some kind of balance as well. |
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Post by Ardavarz on May 30, 2011 1:15:32 GMT 3
I don't know if there is relation, but I found several similar words in N.I. Ashmarin's Chuvash Dictionary:
těně = aperture for smoke in a wall (I think the Mongolian word was toono)
těněl = axis
těnke= force, power
těnni - aperture
těnşe, těnche - world, universe
About double axe - yes, I also have thought that this could be a symbol of balance. The Scythian word for double axe was sagaris. The sign of double axe in Gothic Futhark was the rune dagaz ("day" with etymology from Indo-European "bright sky") representing the sound D (it's similar to the rune for M - mannaz - "man"). The same sign in Old Turkic alphabet is tamgha bašï (baš - "head") which might not be coincidence.
About the myth of Erlik Khan - I think that most of preserved versions are later modifications probably under some Christian (Nestorian?) influence. The name itself could be interpreted as "Human King" which fits the common archetype of first human ancestor-king and legislator = first mortal and so - lord of the world of the dead (cf. Indo-Iranian Manu-Yama). Thus in Mongolian Buddhist texts Erlik Nomun Khaan is equivalent to Sanskrit Yama Dharmaraja ("Lord of the Law", i.e. justice in afterlife). Ulgen as far as I know is interpreted as "dead, deceased" (from the root öl- "to die") while Maidere is a distortion of the Sanskrit Maitreya (the future Buddha). It is interesting to see how this Altaic myth is retold almost word for word but in Christian disguise in medieval apocrypha of Bulgarian Bogomils - there the characters are God, Christ (or Michael) and Satanael.
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Post by ancalimon on May 30, 2011 1:21:51 GMT 3
těnþe, těnche - world, universe compare it with Turkish "Dünya" which entered from Arabic. or the Turkish Dönüyo(r): (it is spinning, turning) or Turkish Devir: (era, cycle, rotation) & Tur (tour, round, rotation, circuit) I don't know if there is relation, but I found several similar words in N.I. Ashmarin's Chuvash Dictionary: těně = aperture for smoke in a wall (I think the Mongolian word was toono) těněl = axis těnke= force, power těnni - aperture těnşe, těnche - world, universe About double axe - yes, I also have thought that this could be a symbol of balance. The Scythian word for double axe was sagaris. The sign of double axe in Gothic Futhark was the rune dagaz ("day" with etymology from Indo-European "bright sky") representing the sound D (it's similar to the rune for M - mannaz - "man"). The same sign in Old Turkic alphabet is tamgha bašï ( baš - "head") which might not be coincidence. About the myth of Erlik Khan - I think that most of preserved versions are later modifications probably under some Christian (Nestorian?) influence. The name itself could be interpreted as "Human King" which fits the common archetype of first human ancestor-king and legislator = first mortal and so - lord of the world of the dead (cf. Indo-Iranian Manu-Yama). Thus in Mongolian Buddhist texts Erlik Nomun Khaan is equivalent to Sanskrit Yama Dharmaraja ("Lord of the Law", i.e. justice in afterlife). Ulgen as far as I know is interpreted as "dead, deceased" (from the root öl- "to die") while Maidere is a distortion of the Sanskrit Maitreya (the future Buddha). It is interesting to see how this Altaic myth is retold almost word for word but in Christian disguise in medieval apocrypha of Bulgarian Bogomils - there the characters are God, Christ (or Michael) and Satanael. Now regarding dagaz and bašï. Arabic Dhikr supposedly comes from Proto-Semitic and it's related to mind, memorization, and male reproductive organ It entered Turkish as zikir. Zikir is to repeat a word (usually 99 names of Allah) which is hard to comprehend over and over again like a mantra so that its meaning one day becomes clear to you. Some kind of invocation. I related it with Sanskrit tekre (wheel) and chakra (cogwheel). Also the whirling dervishes whirling is considered some kind of zikir. |
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Post by benzin on May 30, 2011 1:23:42 GMT 3
ancalimon : I think the answer for this sign might be easy, as if tengely is a balancing stick in the middle of the yurt wich holds the top of the yurt at the middle. Probably the sign of tengri is that balancing stick between the land and the sky as it is in the yurt between the top and the
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Post by ancalimon on May 30, 2011 1:40:18 GMT 3
ancalimon : I think the answer for this sign might be easy, as if tengely is a balancing stick in the middle of the yurt wich holds the top of the yurt at the middle. Probably the sign of tengri is that balancing stick between the land and the sky as it is in the yurt between the top and the Did any of you heard of the mythology in which worlds and things in worlds are "hanged", "hung"? Like the "Tree of Life" is hanged both to the upper world and underworld? Or a star being hanged to the middle word? (we call it Demir Kazýk: Iron stake) |
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Post by benzin on May 30, 2011 2:03:16 GMT 3
In hungarian folk tales the tree of life is on a great mountain, its sacred and its in the garden of the king. Between the upper arms of the tree there are the stars the sun and the moon. It has 9 arms each of them is as large as a forest. If their arms are moving they make the wind. But only those knows where is this tree who born with a teeth in their mouth and these men shouldnt eat anything else but milk for 9 years. The taltos (hungarian word for shaman) is that kind of man. That tree grows on that location where only the shaman with the great knowledge knows where it is.
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Post by benzin on May 30, 2011 2:18:04 GMT 3
there is a good brief about pre christian hungarian mithology on wiki : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_mythologyits more or less like the lord of the rings  . The world has 3 parts, upper, mid and underworld. all is full with weird creatures, all of them has it place on the tree of life. |
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Post by ancalimon on May 30, 2011 4:38:45 GMT 3
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Post by ancalimon on May 30, 2011 8:43:20 GMT 3
Does anyone know what "Tang" here means in this prayer?
It starts with Sogdian title
Vam vagý-nung baþ
Tang tengri kelti
Tang tengri özi kelti
Tang tengri kelti
Tang tengri özi kelti
Turunglar kamag begler kadaslar
Tang tengrig ögelim
Körügme kün tengri
Siz bizni küzeding
Körünügme ay tengri
siz bizni kurtgaring
Tang tengri
Yýdlýg yýparlýg
Yaruglug yashuklug
Tang tengri
Tang tengri
Tang tengri
Yýdlýg yýparlýg
Yaruglug yashuklug
Tang tengri
Tang tengri
Tang tengri
Is it something like hallelujah, gratitude? Or is it something like "rising of the sun", "giving life,warmth,light aspect of the sun" ?
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Post by benzin on May 30, 2011 11:02:49 GMT 3
Its interesting that in one prayer its written both with a end e, tang and tengri. Maybe one of the words lost its original meaning.
I dont know about any relation between sogdian and hungarian, but if it does the title means this :
vam vagy nung bat (van vagy nints baty : is there or is there no superior brother)
In hungarian if you write for example tengri two times, it means sg. like superior tengri, the biggest among them. Maybe it has the same meaning here tang tengri as the largest god.
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Post by benzin on May 30, 2011 11:28:03 GMT 3
So what we have for sure until now, that the base of the word tengri is teng wich relates to equality, balance, and the wheel. If we would get where is the word spread from we would get closer to its original meaning, if it had any additional meaning earlier.
Other words wich may relate to here :
tengleng : being or walking without reason
Are there words ending with ng in türkic languages ? Maybe the same letter changes would be findable from teng to tek.
pang : empty, weak
kong : sound of an empty bottle, but its used to explain how empty is something.
láng : light of fire
csáng : (pronounce : tsang : wandaring)
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Post by benzin on May 30, 2011 11:30:34 GMT 3
one more came to my mind wich I saw among turkic words but with other meaning.
döngöl : hitting the ground heavily to make it flat (for example to place a yurt to the ground)
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Post by benzin on May 30, 2011 11:52:29 GMT 3
Maybe I got an other relation.
Other word currently in use for god in Magyar language is Isten. Its the same name for god in old persian and sumerian. Probably the ending ten is the same as the root ten in tengri.
There is several base words with ten, and it would explain the change of ng to ny in hungarian.
Tény means Fact
Tenyér means Hand
Tanya means Farm
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. The world has 3 parts, upper, mid and underworld. all is full with weird creatures, all of them has it place on the tree of life.