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Post by Alanus on May 8, 2010 20:05:49 GMT 3
I thought this might be an interesting subject.
For good luck, I wear a 2,000 year-old bronze ring embamized with a swastika on it. The symbol is incredibly old and was popular throughout the world until the 1930s when it was "stolen" by a not-to-be-named crack-pot sect.
The swasticka was used by the Coca-Cola Company, the Hallmark Card Company, and the Canadian Candy Company. The ancient "Hallstadt Prince" was buried with material woven with swastikas, and its found on Roman villa mosaics from Italy to Britain. Today in India, it's still found affixed to statues of the Buddha, and it's on Japanese road maps (designating Buddhist temples).
My question is this-- are there any ancient illustrations of this symbol in the Central Asian steppe zone?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 9, 2010 14:30:33 GMT 3
Yes, the Mongols use it; images and examples of it were shared by our member Bor Chono in the "Symbols" thread in the General Culture History section When I visited the Turkish-Islamic Arts Museum in Istanbul in 2003, I saw a very big 16th century Turkish carpet in the carpets section, which had two swastikas facing each other. When I visited the museum several years later, the carpet was removed
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Post by Subu'atai on May 9, 2010 14:48:04 GMT 3
When I visited the Turkish-Islamic Arts Museum in Istanbul in 2003, I saw a very big 16th century Turkish carpet in the carpets section, which had two swastikas facing each other. When I visited the museum several years later, the carpet was removed LOL! Typical ;D The sad thing is that about 199/200 people (based on what I've seen) whenever they see a "swastika", they start jumping up and down going "Omg! Nazi Nazi Nazi!" ;D I wonder what happened to that carpet =/
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 9, 2010 14:58:02 GMT 3
Probably moved back to the collection in the museum depot. It's a common thing to replace things on display with those in the depots, because usually the display halls are too small to have everything put on display
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Post by Alanus on May 9, 2010 21:25:42 GMT 3
Makes you wonder what it would take to re-educate the general public about the real significance of the swastika. If the Mongols used it, and it was used straight across the steppe into Europe, even into Britain, then it had to be a very popular and powerful symbol. Makes you wonder about its true age, when it first showed up. Obviously, its not Chinese, or Indian, or Mongolian, or Greek, or Celtic-- it just shows up everywhere!
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Post by hjernespiser on May 10, 2010 0:30:22 GMT 3
It's supposed to also have been used by Native Americans too.
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Post by Alanus on May 10, 2010 4:25:12 GMT 3
It's supposed to also have been used by Native Americans too. Is it possible that Native Amerians carried it with them when they crossed the Bering Strait? If that's the case, the symbol would be over 10,000 years old.
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Post by Subu'atai on May 10, 2010 17:05:01 GMT 3
"Swastika" is known as "Khas", or "Tumen Nasan Khee" -> 10,000 yr old symbol. Details thanks to Bor Chono on the cultural history section. As for the native americans: www.royalsaskmuseum.ca/research/faqs/ex_8.shtmlQuite interesting really. This is another case when history enters into politics. It's best to let the sheep roam around as prey for the wolves anyway. Besides, it's fun! Ever tried slapping a swastika on the back of your car for some entertainment of the majority's intense ignorance? ;D
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Post by sarmat on May 10, 2010 17:37:45 GMT 3
Makes you wonder what it would take to re-educate the general public about the real significance of the swastika. If the Mongols used it, and it was used straight across the steppe into Europe, even into Britain, then it had to be a very popular and powerful symbol. Makes you wonder about its true age, when it first showed up. Obviously, its not Chinese, or Indian, or Mongolian, or Greek, or Celtic-- it just shows up everywhere! Swastika as , originally, positive solar symbol has been corrupted because of its use by the Nazists and, unfortunately, it still ignites negative reaction among many people mainly in the Western world. Such reaction is totally understandable. Moreover, if Swastika is indeed used in the modern Western World it's mostly related to some Nazi associated activities. Although, it has been used in Europe before the Nazists as an ornament. But it didn't have any real, let alone "powerful" significance. I would say it's a gross overstretch to say that swastika has ever had any significant meaning for the Westerners. In the east, however, Swastika is a totally normal image that is, publically, displayed everywhere because of it's association with Buddhist and Hinduist symbolism. Chinese character which looks like Swastika means Buddha, Buddhism, 10 thousand years and eternity. It is displayed everywhere and for local people it's totally normal, since Hitler, Nazism, etc. mean very little for them. Once in Taiwan I saw a huge monument of stone swastika installed on the large pedestal in the center of a large city. The traditional use of swastika in Mongolia is also mainly due to Buddhist/Chinese influence. In fact, Nazists also started to use Swastika under the influence of the "Eastern symbolism" that was preached in the west in the end of the 19th century by Theosophycial society created by the crazy madam Blavatsky, who claimed that she was in supernatural contacts with some "higher powers" that revealed her the truth about all the things. She invented the fairy tale about ancient great "root races" that inhabited the Earth long time before, which also included stories about poweful allmighty Arian race and the significance of the Swastika as a powerful "racial" symbol. German and Austrian "mystics" were so charmed with Madam Blavatsky mamba-jamba that also started to write baseless "historical articles" about some great mythical master race of Aryans from Atlantis that used Swastika as their symbol, etc. The creators of the Nazi movement and Hitler himself were influenced by the ideology of intellectual circles influenced by those "Aryan mystics" and adopted swastika as the ancient coat of arms of the "great ancestors" that in fact was a complete and artificial myth. That's how the Indian swastika had ended up on the Nazi banners after which its image was complitely corrupted. Mostly, because swastika was rather unknown symbol and a general public became familiar with it only through the Nazi propaganda...
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Post by Subu'atai on May 10, 2010 18:23:46 GMT 3
Swastika as , originally, positive solar symbol has been corrupted because of its use by the Nazists and, unfortunately, it still ignites negative reaction among many people mainly in the Western world. Such reaction is totally understandable. Moreover, if Swastika is indeed used in the modern Western World it's mostly related to some Nazi associated activities. Although, it has been used in Europe before the Nazists as an ornament. But it didn't have any real, let alone "powerful" significance. I would say it's a gross overstretch to say that swastika has ever had any significant meaning for the Westerners. Understandable? I guess it's understandable that Iranians can't even call themselves Aryans yes? My friend, I shall have to disagree. I disagree, don't take what I mentioned on Bor Chono's posts too heartily. The Khas is a very ancient symbol with a high possibility in history predating Buddhism itself. Now I would argue the Taoist symbol on the Khalkha Mongol flag being of Taoist/Chinese influence, but not this. All the more reason to slap on on the back of your car and entertain yourself!!!! ;D ;D ;D Sorry mate, but you know me, long shifts - begs for ways to entertain myself to maintain sanity lol!
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Post by sarmat on May 10, 2010 18:36:31 GMT 3
Understandable? I guess it's understandable that Iranians can't even call themselves Aryans yes? My friend, I shall have to disagree. I'm not getting your point here. How Iranians can't call themselves Aryans and how it's related to swastika in any way? The real Aryans are, in fact, Iranians, Indians and even Gypsies, but not some blond guys from Sweden... I disagree, don't take what I mentioned on Bor Chono's posts too heartily. The Khas is a very ancient symbol with a high possibility in history predating Buddhism itself. Now I would argue the Taoist symbol on the Khalkha Mongol flag being of Taoist/Chinese influence, but not this. Its use in Mongolia may predate the Buddhist meaning, but right now, its complitely "consumed" by the Buddhist symbolism, othewise, why would it be associated with "10 thousand years" and Buddha in Mongolia? And obviously, the places you can see swastikas in Mongolia are almost all the time Buddhist temples..
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Post by Subu'atai on May 10, 2010 19:07:30 GMT 3
I'm not getting your point here. How Iranians can't call themselves Aryans and how it's related to swastika in any way? The real Aryans are, in fact, Iranians, Indians and even Gypsies, but not some blond guys from Sweden... The REAL Aryans are in fact as you said Iranians/Northern Indians during Vedic period/etc etc. The Majority in the West however, hear the word "Aryan" and go O.O!!!! LOL, dont get the joke, hope this helps: Buddhism was imposed on Khalkha Mongols, and adopted by Oirat Mongols in history. Neither case showed complete religious assimilation of Shamanism - in fact, it has shown the complete opposite. My wife's swiss friend who is also a Tibetan Buddhist, has tons of Shamanistic elements in her beliefs. In fact, as she is our neighbour, there's prayer flags freakin everywhere lol!
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Post by Alanus on May 10, 2010 19:48:43 GMT 3
Back to Sarmat and Subu'atai, Thanks, guys, for the info. You're both right in identifying the Iranians, Indians, (and Gypsies), as the original Aryians/Arians. That's why Ptolomy placed Aria in the middle of their territories. However, the swastika did have a positive significance in the west, first with the Native Americans. There's a town in Nebraska (I think, or maybe Kansas) that still retains its name as Swastika, even though it now has a negitive connotation. From what I gather from you, the symbol would predate Buddhism in Mongolia; and if it came across with the Native Americans, it would actually be older than 10,000 years. Many anthropologists date the Bering Strait crossing at 15,000 years. In western Europe it was everywhere and predates Buddhism again. The Hallstadt swastikas date to 500 BC. I'm not sure who the original owner of my ring was, but probably a Roman or Phrygian soldier, since it's the "homemade soldier's ring" variety and dates to around the year zero. My guess is we are looking at the first universal symbol, and it spread worldwide at a very early date.
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Post by sarmat on May 10, 2010 19:56:34 GMT 3
My point is that while the use of swastika in Europe, surely, predates Buddhism etc. But it didn't have that much significance at all.
The most significant use of swastika in the west was during the times of Nazists. And, the funny, think is that they haven't been inspired by some European motives when adobted this symbol for themselves, but rather were influenced by the nonsense of some "Oriental mysticism" lynatics. ;D
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Post by Alanus on May 10, 2010 20:23:20 GMT 3
Yuh. Pretty strange, eh? Adopted from the ramblings of nut-case. But think about it-- the ancient swastika found in western clothing and mosaics must have had some powerful significance, not the same as used by the Nazis, but a most auspicious symbol to show up just about everywhere in early western culture-- Germany, Italy, Greece, and the isle of Britain.
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