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Post by nanman on Jul 20, 2008 1:34:40 GMT 3
Ya, racism against Asians (Mongols, Chinese, Japanese...anyone who are Mongoloid race) in North America and Europe. Constant stereotypes are shown on TV and movies. Its sad that we Asians are fighting to each other and distrust each other, while the West (US and Europe) is "united" (ideologically and culuturally). A lot of the constant tic for tac jibes at each other has not helped either. Some people really have nothing constructive to do. With regards to the last descendents of the great Khaan. When I was in ET near areas where a minority of Tuvans lived. There was this constant rumoured theory that a branch of their ancestors were direct descendents of a clan that was very closed to Chinghis and many Tuvans in the area proudly boasted about this. They were once warriors very close to Chinghis on a westward campaign, they had been wounded in battle and therefore stayed around the foothill forests west of the Altai. Now, there was very little hard evidence that backed this and I could not help thinking it was Chinese mis-information based on lack of concrete evidence. Is there any other sources that may back this theory?
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Post by Verinen Paroni on Jul 20, 2008 1:39:54 GMT 3
Ya, racism against Asians (Mongols, Chinese, Japanese...anyone who are Mongoloid race) in North America and Europe. Constant stereotypes are shown on TV and movies. Its sad that we Asians are fighting to each other and distrust each other, while the West (US and Europe) is "united" (ideologically and culuturally). There is also alot of stereotypes about italians in Hollywood. ;D
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Post by sarmat on Jul 20, 2008 5:46:49 GMT 3
With regards to the last descendents of the great Khaan. When I was in ET near areas where a minority of Tuvans lived. There was this constant rumoured theory that a branch of their ancestors were direct descendents of a clan that was very closed to Chinghis and many Tuvans in the area proudly boasted about this. They were once warriors very close to Chinghis on a westward campaign, they had been wounded in battle and therefore stayed around the foothill forests west of the Altai. Now, there was very little hard evidence that backed this and I could not help thinking it was Chinese mis-information based on lack of concrete evidence. Is there any other sources that may back this theory? I actually think this is self evident. Tuvans originate from Uriankhai (in fact they were called Uriankhais until recently). And we know that Subudai (a person very close to the Great Khan) was Uriankhai BTW I made a very interesting observation regarding this. Tuvans are Turkic speakers, right. So, according to Rashid ad-Din if I'm not mistaken, Subudai during the Caucasus campaing talks to a Kipchak khan in order to trick him and besides the other things he says something like this "you and we speak the same language." I mean if Subudai was indeed a Turkic Uriankhai, it's not surprising that he spoke "one language" with Turkic Kipchaks ;D
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Post by ALTAR on Jul 20, 2008 10:11:52 GMT 3
I read an article in a history magazine a few years ago. There was a man whose name was Shotaman and lived in Kazakhstan. He said that he was directly descended from Cuci the son Ulug Khan.
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Post by nanman on Jul 20, 2008 14:12:24 GMT 3
Tuvans are Turkic speakers, right. That is right I think. In ET because their numbers are so small they have somewhat been put into a subgroup of Mongols but speak a Turkic dialect.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 20, 2008 14:19:15 GMT 3
The name Uriyangqai (Uriankhai) was a general name used during the 12th-14th centuries for many different forest-steppe peoples of Southern Siberia. But the info given by Sarmat (which is true) is quiet interesting indeed.
Btw, the Tuvans are also mentioned in the Chinese sources as a branch of the Tiĕlè (T'ieh-le) 鐵勒 peoples, living near the Lake Baikal.
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Post by sarmat on Jul 20, 2008 23:17:14 GMT 3
It's also very interesting in this regard that Turks and Mongol in Altai have a kind of thing which one might call of "identity" problem. Perhaps, it's actually not a problem at all, but it's we who artificially apply new categories, classifications, categorizations etc. to the people who have been living for centuries together and didn't even think about such things. What I mean is that besides Tuvinians, who are linguistically Turkic but culturally can't be really distinguished from Mongols, there are also Altai Turks, which are called simply Altaians now and live mostly in the Altai region of Russia. Altaians actually are the direct descendant of Tiele. But the interesting thing is that until recently they were called no less but Oirats or mountain Kalmyks. We know well that Kalmyks or Oirats are definitely Mongolian people. Yet, it's actually the indigenous name of Turkic Altaians, descendants of Tiele.
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Post by snafu on Feb 19, 2009 23:51:31 GMT 3
Wow. I've never seen anyone get emotional over Steven Segal.
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Post by mongolulus on Apr 6, 2009 17:46:09 GMT 3
way off topic folks.
anyway, i'm totally surprised that that one man in china claims to be the only living of GK.
we have many ppl here in Mongolia that Know their descend from the GK. we have grandchildren of the Tusheet Khan (descendant of Tolui, with unbroken "aristocratic" succession) such as Badamhand and her children who live in the 19th district here in Ulaanbaatar. They preserve many things received from their khan-father. and we have granchildren of the great Byambin Rinchen (whom ppl called the only true mongolian of ulaanbaatar. and everyone knows that he has direct descent from GK). and i believe we have descendants of the great writer Natsagdorj (GK seed) as well.
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Post by mongolulus on Apr 6, 2009 17:52:44 GMT 3
the mongolian nobility was eliminated in the early years of Mongolian People's Republic (around 1924 to 1937). BUT we still have their grandchildren still living among us. and the Songool and Ashabgad tribes (buryaticised khalkhas exiled from Mongolia in 1680s) have a central aristocratic core descended from Ohin Taij (descendant of Batmonkh dayan khan, descendant of GhanK), and they are numerous in Mongolia today. I'm a mixture of Ashabgad and Songool, so there's about an 85% chance that I have atleast one ancestor in that central aristocratic core.
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Post by Subu'atai on Apr 18, 2009 14:38:19 GMT 3
Fact is that this 'CK descendency' thing has been going on for almost a millenia and it's been causing more problems then solving them.
Man of the millenia... hell he's not God, but seriously close, really close.
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fun
Är
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Post by fun on Aug 19, 2009 6:42:19 GMT 3
The descendents of he Crimean Giray khan family still exists as far as I know. Of course there are unofficial descendents of Chinggis Khan (numbered around 16 million in Asia), according to a theory ;D I have read also that Windsors in UK are his descendants... This groundless speculation is bound to raise a huge hullabaloo in Britain if it is leaked out in the English press. Most nomadic tribes in Central Asia, from Mongolia to Turkey, are proud to have Genghis Khan's genes in their body, as seen in the many claims among those people. The claim for Genghis Khan’s ethnic origin is so intense between the Turkic and Mongol people that we find them quarrel fiercely in internet forums. I found the following example in shardsofmongolia.blogspot.com/2006/10/mongolia-may-regulate-genghis-khan.html where one Turk argued fiercely with some angry Mongols: “Genghis Khan was born on territory of modern Kazakhstan indeed. Even if u look at his name given at birth - "Timujin" - means "blacksmith" in turkic, his given name "Gengis Khan" (Shyngys Khan) - consists of two TURKIC words: "Shyn" - peak of a mountain, and "gys" - ray of light. There are many more facts that prove his turkic roots i.e. red hair and green eyes which was pretty common feature of turkic people, no "mongol" could possibly have red hair and moreover, green eyes” However, white people, especially the British, have developed a superiority complex since the 16th Century. In America, if any Asian claims that he is a descendant of Genghis Khan, he won’t be treated with high regard but would be kicked around like an ass. The British, the supremo of all European racists, will definitely not feel any pride to find Genghis Khan's blood in any member of their race. In fact, the word “mongolism” is an offensive term invented by the British for Down syndrome -- a system of classification for mentally retarded people. Any speculation of Genghis Khan’s “pollution” in the British royal family's blood will certainly be taken as a national disgrace and humiliation. Even for any white Russian, whose race is regarded as second-class Europeans by their Western counterparts, would jump with great fury if anyone dares to suggest that he has a bit of Mongolian blood.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 19, 2009 12:39:37 GMT 3
Greetings fun, welcome aboard
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Post by Subu'atai on Aug 19, 2009 17:02:21 GMT 3
Bah!
Fun, I'm sorry but I have to disagree. Many Mongols have juvenile light-hair or light-eyed traits and some even carry these into adulthood. Personally I don't believe its due to intermixing, I believe it's genetic drift, which is considered science rather then race which is already labeled obsolete and no longer in use either then a social construct.
But even if it is due to intermixing, it doesn't matter, I don't want apostrophes next to my family thank you very much, so I consider it an insult if you consider me a "Mongol" rather then a Mongol. Do we understand each other here?
As for racism, European history has always had it since Roman times, from "civilised" vs "barbarian" to "christian" vs "infidel" now to "caucasiod" vs "mongoloid/negroid". Hell even the Anglos now try to propagate the Indians had a RACIAL caste system which favored a light-skinned elite to a lower-class dark-skinned majority. During my travels I have met Indians who educated me of the caste system and how the racial system was IMPOSED by the British and had nothing to do with their ancient traditions.
From what they tell me, the caste system of India was during the Vedic period of India which was more of a theocracy lasting only 300 years compared to the Maurya Empire lasting a good 1000 which abolished class discrimination not to mention meritocracy enforced by Altaic invaders after until Anglo colonisation. Amongst Indians they have a label for some people, they call them Babos? What's Babo?
A Babo is one who follows the caste system, I asked if they meant British, they answered no; it's not a term for British. It's a term for Indians who act like British. I found this revelation rather interesting. But hey I'm the kind of historian who likes to meet with the locals to form my own facts, written history for me is primary sure, but oral history if shared amongst the majority tends to have a lasting note. Just my view; since I already understand all too well how too many written historical revisions have already been made for political reasons.
European racism has allowed them to expand, dehumanise, and genocide shamelessly. Worked since Rome. Happy happy sure, but nowadays; Europeans by comparison in general are by far much more moral then the Americans or Australians in their ways of thinking. Some say Europeans are the descendants of cultured Europeans, Americans and Australians are the descendants of Colonists who some insultingly consider "White Trash", and still centuries behind with racial understanding.
To be fair however, it was two ANGLO-Australians families who were the FIRST to hold my baby daughter and consider her as a human being, instead of trying to judging her before she is even born (and perhaps felt threatened that they couldn't since she carried 4 "races"). Anyways I was forced to settle a case outside of court with someone I assaulted thanks to my spent conviction dealing with f--kwits. Australia isn't a place where you can beat up someone and get away with it, sue sue sue that's all they do, f--king dole bluggers. Can't risk 5-years instant lockup as a new dad.
Ne ways all this descendancy sh-t has got to me at long last. Ancestors are ancestors, their achievements we as individuals have nothing to do with. If anyone judges otherwise, f--k 'em. I'm sorry... but racism no matter how slight really touches a nerve with me nowadays, reminds me of those in the past who dared judge my baby girl before she was born.
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Post by Temüjin on Aug 19, 2009 20:06:26 GMT 3
A Babo is one who follows the caste system, I asked if they meant British, they answered no; it's not a term for British. It's a term for Indians who act like British. I found this revelation rather interesting. But hey I'm the kind of historian who likes to meet with the locals to form my own facts, written history for me is primary sure, but oral history if shared amongst the majority tends to have a lasting note. Just my view; since I already understand all too well how too many written historical revisions have already been made for political reasons. i've also heard about that. someone mentioned that Indians themselves kept the institutions imposed by the British and exploit their fellow countrymen like the British used to because the system was already in place and they just took over after independence...
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