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Post by jstampfl on Dec 13, 2004 15:53:14 GMT 3
Here is a list of Empires that controlled the area we now call Mongolia. Steppe cultures: 400BC -  Saka/Scynthians Herodotus mentions. Location from Iran to Mongolia. 200BC - 100AD Hunnu. Location Mongolia. 0AD - AD Xianbi Empire at least until 200AD. Location Mongolia. Donghu ethnic group. 220AD – 581AD Wei Dynasty. Location Mongolia, North China, Toba ethnic group. 330AD – 555AD Jujuans (rourans) AKA Nirun. Location Lake Baikal to the Gobi, Harshar to Korea. Some Jujuans moved west over the Ural mountains and became the Avars. 552AD – 744AD Turkic Khanate – Location Great Wall to the Black Sea. Eastern and Western Turkic Khanates 745AD – 840AD Uighurs – Location from the Altai to the Khinggan mountains, from the Soyon mountains to the Gobi. Capital at Karabalgansun 25km NE of Xar Xorin (Khar Khorin) Mongolia 840AD – 924AD Kirghiz - location Mongolia (origin the Yenisei River). 924AD – 1115AD Liao Dynasty – Khitan ethnic group a branch of Mongolians. Location Mongolia and North China. 990AD – 1227AD Tangut Khanate. 1128AD - 1218 Kara Khitan. From the Khitan’s in Mongolia after losing to the Jurchid (Jin Dynasty) Kashgar to Amu Darya River. 1115AD – 1232AD - Jin Dynasty 1206AD - 387AD – The Mongol Empire, Yuan Dynasty 1387AD - 1696AD - Halh and Oirad Mongols via for power 1696AD – 1921AD – Qing Dynasty 1921AD - Republic of Mongolia Source: History of Mongolia by Baabar. 1999 Genghis Khan, His Life and Legacy by Paul Ratchnevsky 1991 www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0001/0001_06_02.htm www.allempires.com/empires/uighur/uighur1.htm |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 14, 2004 20:33:34 GMT 3
500AD – 700AD Turkic Khanate – Location Great Wall to the Black Sea. Eastern and Western Turkic Khanates The exact dates are 552-744 AD. Actually, you should better check the "List of Tujue Rulers" thread in the Gök Türk-Uyghur board. |
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Post by jstampfl on Dec 14, 2004 21:11:06 GMT 3
Thanks for the pointer. I think we need to get a list of who was there and then work on each empire to get the dates better, but of course many dates are not certain, as for example the Uighurs who are identified as a group as early as 630. but don't be come dominate as you pointed out until 745.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 15, 2004 20:37:14 GMT 3
Well, most of the Tiele tribes of Mongolia formed the Toquz Oghuz Alliance in the period between 627-630 and at the same time, the Xueyantuo (mistakenly re-constructed in Old Turkic as "Sir-Tardush") rebelled against the Eastern Tujue and founded a separate qaghanate. The Xueyantuo and Toquz Oghuz peoples were all vassals of the Tang Dynasty but at the same time most of the peoples that formed the Toquz Oghuz were also vassals of the Xueyantuo. Among them was the Uyghur people.
After the death of it's Bilge Qaghan (not to be confused with Bilge Qaghan of the Eastern Tujue), the Xueyantuo Qaghanate started to decline and it was destroyed by the Uyghur-Tang Alliance by 647. After that, almost all the Toquz Oghuz submitted to the Tang (again) and their lands were converted to military districts, each people becoming a district and their leaders becoming governors. Some, but not all, Toquz Oghuz rebelled against the Tang Dynasty in the 650s (around 658 IIRC) but they were defeated and subjugated by General Zhang Rentai.
The Eastern Tujue started several rebellions between 679 and 680 but only that of Qutlugh was succesful. Qutlugh and his prime minister Tonyuquq attacked the "Baz Qaghan" (Vassal Ruler) of the Toquz Oghuz and defeated him in a battle in 682. Following the battle, the Tujue captured Ötüken (sacred center) and declared their independence, establishing the Second Eastern Gök Türk (Blue Turk) Qaghanate. So, the Toquz Oghuz, ruled by a qaghan who was a vassal of the Tang around the 670s, became subjects of the Eastern Tujue instead of the Tang.
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Post by Saran on Aug 11, 2006 16:06:27 GMT 3
Here is a list of Empires that controlled the area we now call Mongolia. Steppe cultures: 400BC - Saka/Scynthians Herodotus mentions. Location from Iran to Mongolia. 200BC - 100AD Hunnu. Location Mongolia. 0AD - AD Xianbi Empire at least until 200AD. Location Mongolia. Donghu ethnic group. 220AD – 581AD Wei Dynasty. Location Mongolia, North China, Toba ethnic group. 330AD – 555AD Jujuans (rourans) AKA Nirun. Location Lake Baikal to the Gobi, Harshar to Korea. Some Jujuans moved west over the Ural mountains and became the Avars. 552AD – 744AD Turkic Khanate – Location Great Wall to the Black Sea. Eastern and Western Turkic Khanates 745AD – 840AD Uighurs – Location from the Altai to the Khinggan mountains, from the Soyon mountains to the Gobi. Capital at Karabalgansun 25km NE of Xar Xorin (Khar Khorin) Mongolia 840AD – 924AD Kirghiz - location Mongolia (origin the Yenisei River). 924AD – 1115AD Liao Dynasty – Khitan ethnic group a branch of Mongolians. Location Mongolia and North China. 990AD – 1227AD Tangut Khanate. 1128AD - 1218 Kara Khitan. From the Khitan’s in Mongolia after losing to the Jurchid (Jin Dynasty) Kashgar to Amu Darya River. 1115AD – 1232AD - Jin Dynasty 1206AD - 387AD – The Mongol Empire, Yuan Dynasty 1387AD - 1696AD - Halh and Oirad Mongols via for power 1696AD – 1921AD – Qing Dynasty 1921AD - Republic of Mongolia Source: History of Mongolia by Baabar. 1999 Genghis Khan, His Life and Legacy by Paul Ratchnevsky 1991 www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0001/0001_06_02.htm www.allempires.com/empires/uighur/uighur1.htm
So which ones you think have the Mongol origin? I have never heard about Jin dynasty. Toba Wei, Hunnu, Jujan were Mongols right? |
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Post by Temüjin on Aug 11, 2006 20:16:29 GMT 3
actually many of those empires never controled the area of modern Mongolia, such as Jin dynasty, Tanguts and Kara Khitai empire.
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Post by Boorchi Noyan on Aug 11, 2006 21:35:14 GMT 3
I think we can't say sth about the Hunnu (Xiongnu)'s ethnicity. They were a confederation. Toba were Turkic I think, but they were chinified (that's why china was called Tabgaç in Orkhun Tablets). Jujans (Ruan-Ruans) were Mongol I think. I don't know anything about the Jin dynasty.
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Post by tengrikut on Aug 12, 2006 0:34:27 GMT 3
I think we can't say sth about the Hunnu (Xiongnu)'s ethnicity. They were a confederation. Toba were Turkic I think, but they were chinified (that's why china was called Tabgaç in Orkhun Tablets). Jujans (Ruan-Ruans) were Mongol I think. I don't know anything about the Jin dynasty. juanjuans were Turkic. after defeating by Tujue, they moved to europea, and they had their own state again after 5 years. i know that they sieged Konstantinopolis several times. |
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Post by Boorchi Noyan on Aug 12, 2006 14:04:15 GMT 3
Jean Paul Roux says that Ruan-Ruans (Avars) were formed by Mongolian speaking ppl. And there are really doubts that the Avars who appeared in Europe were descendants of these in steppes.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 12, 2006 17:02:21 GMT 3
The Xiongnu were a large steppe federation made up of various ethnicities, including peoples of Turkic, Mongolic, Tokharian and Iranic stock. However, the ruling people of this empire was Turkic.
The Rouran (Ruanruan) were similar; the ruling family was of Xianbei (Mongolic) origin, but they ruled over many Turkic and Mongolic peoples.
The Tuoba (Tabghach) were originially one of the many Xianbei tribes. However, they later broke off from the main Xianbei body and after mixing with the Xiongnu of Northern China, they became a distinct people.
The Jin Dynasty of Northern China was founded by the Tungusic Jürchen people (descendents of Malgals, ancestors of Manchus).
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Post by Boorchi Noyan on Aug 12, 2006 18:25:40 GMT 3
The Tuoba (Tabghach) were originially one of the many Xianbei tribes. However, they later broke off from the main Xianbei body and after mixing with the Xiongnu of Northern China, they became a distinct people. Heeyyy, I thought that Tabgachs were Turkic originally, are you sure they were Xiabei... |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 14, 2006 1:18:18 GMT 3
Read what I wrote carefully  |
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Post by bigmonkey2382 on Jan 14, 2007 23:31:29 GMT 3
Lets not forget the land still held by the Chinese to this day.
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Post by Saran on Jan 15, 2007 15:07:08 GMT 3
Lets not forget the land still held by the Chinese to this day. ;D |
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Post by bigmonkey2382 on Jan 15, 2007 17:49:51 GMT 3
I still don't like that idea. Mongol land should only be held by the mongols themselves. Knowing that most likely won't happen. A good dream however..
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Saka/Scynthians Herodotus mentions. Location from Iran to Mongolia.
