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Post by massaget on Apr 12, 2012 19:30:20 GMT 3
Ungar derives from Onogur, there is a scholarly consensus about it. And there is a consensus in that they were bulgar-türks.
It can be 2 ways.
a. The Arpadids and the complete hungarian elite were bulgar-türk. The local population of present day hungary already spoken in hungarian language when they arrived and they mixed up. The language spoken by the majority survived. (this theory is getting more and more followers lately and has some considerable proofs)
b. the onogurs are originally not türks, türks took the control over under centuries starting from the fall off Attila's empire, and its a mixed population.
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 12, 2012 20:42:36 GMT 3
I don't agree with option b.
Onoghurs and Oghurs were Turks originating out of the Dingling populations. As they entered the Pontic steppes around the time of Attila's death, they started to rule over local populations and mix with them, including remnant Huns, Slavs, Germans, Iranian, and Finno-Ugrics.
As for option a., archaeology shows that the Magyar ruling class were mixed Magyar with other ethnics who held hegemony on the steppe like Oghuric (Bulgharic) Turks, Khazars, and Alans.
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Post by ancalimon on Apr 13, 2012 0:24:45 GMT 3
I've read that Magyars are probably Finno-Ugric people originally. What I want to know is whether the "Ugric" part is related with Ogurs or not.
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Post by Ardavarz on Apr 13, 2012 1:31:46 GMT 3
Onoghundur reminds me of On Ok. I don't know enough about how these names were recorded in the sources to speculate too much on that. A comparison of "Onoghun" and "Onoghur" shows up in one of my books where the -n and the -r at the end supposedly is some Turkic collective suffix. No idea of what -dur would be. I think the similarities with Toquz Uighur and On Uighur are not coincidental but cultural. As far as I know, the Byzantine sources give two variants: Ὀνογούνδουροι Οὐννογουνδοῦροι They differ in the first part - ono- vs, unno-, and also about the place and type of the accent. How much this reflects the original pronunciation or to what extent it was influenced by the rules of the Greek grammar is not clear. I guess several possibilities: On-ok-undur, Ono/Unno-gundur or Ono/Unno-ghun-dur. About the suffux -dur I've came across some speculations that it could be related to the name of the royal clan Dulo - some r-variant of pronunciation maybe suggesting the Tur people (the ancient Turanians called in Avesta Tūrō), but it doesn't seem much plausible to me. |
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Post by ancalimon on Apr 13, 2012 12:03:06 GMT 3
In Shahname, Tur are considered the ancestors of Indo-Europeans.
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Post by massaget on Apr 13, 2012 12:12:07 GMT 3
Lets see all versions of onogur ever mentioned in sources.
Priscos rethor, Agathias : Onogur
Theophylaktos Simocatta : Unniguroi
Jordanes : Hunuguri
Isidore of Seville : Ugnos
Anecdota Syrica : Ungur
Georgios Monachos, Leon Grammaticos : Unnoi, Ungroi
Paulos Orosius : Hungaria, as the local Huns calls Pannonia (In 417 AD !)
St gallen yearbooks : Ungarus (731-36 AD)
Sesto yearbook : Via Ungarorum
Liptingen yearbook : Houngerus, Hungaeus, Hungaruus, Hungri, Hungarorum (761-793 AD)
Wiessenburg yearbook : Hungarius (797-809)
Annales Bertiniati : Ungri (862 AD)
Did I miss anything ?
I wouldnt exclude as an option that the origin of the name is hun+ugor.
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Post by massaget on Apr 13, 2012 12:14:45 GMT 3
ancalimon : ugor is not related with ogur. Our ugrian language contains countless ogur loanwords.
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 13, 2012 19:27:17 GMT 3
Are you trying to list occurrences of that name from when the Oghurs first entered European knowledge? There's the later Russian primary chronicles using Ongor and Ongre, Arab sources using Wulundur/Vununtur, Armenian Olhontor and Vlendur, and I think there's more Greek sources too.
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Post by massaget on Apr 13, 2012 20:27:18 GMT 3
Im listing the names of onoghurs from all possible sources. It shows, that the theory of onogur is the original name of this tribe is not atomic stable.
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Post by massaget on Apr 13, 2012 20:34:54 GMT 3
I don't agree with option b. Onoghurs and Oghurs were Turks originating out of the Dingling populations. As they entered the Pontic steppes around the time of Attila's death, they started to rule over local populations and mix with them, including remnant Huns, Slavs, Germans, Iranian, and Finno-Ugrics. As for option a., archaeology shows that the Magyar ruling class were mixed Magyar with other ethnics who held hegemony on the steppe like Oghuric (Bulgharic) Turks, Khazars, and Alans. You are wrong here. Onoghurs were in the Pontic region earlier then the split up of Attila's empire. Actually they were there in the 350s already. I have source for that. |
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 13, 2012 21:20:17 GMT 3
I'd be interested in that source.
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 14, 2012 5:36:45 GMT 3
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Post by massaget on Apr 14, 2012 14:09:00 GMT 3
I'd be interested in that source. Geograph of Ravenna mentions in his 7.th century work Cosmographia the following about the Meotis and Onoghoria : „Item juxta maré Ponticum patria, quae dicitur Onogoria, quam subtilius Livanius pliilosophus vicinam paludis Máotidae summitatis esse decernit, asserens multitudinem ex vicinantium locorum habere, sed, ut barbarus mos est, insulae eos perfruere." Livanius- who he quotes about Onoghoria- lived from ca 314 - ca 394. |
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Post by massaget on Apr 14, 2012 14:11:35 GMT 3
Its clear from his work that the Geograph of Ravenna didnt know exactly where Onoghoria is, he knew it is somewhere on the north east black sea, but here he quotes Livanius who knew the exact location and some habits of the locals.
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Post by Ardavarz on Apr 15, 2012 3:44:35 GMT 3
I don't think that he completely rejected it. He just criticized the theory of Moravcsik that "Onongundur is either a Bulghar-Turkic form or a distortion of Onogur through the mediation of a foregn language". According to Beshevliev: "given the presence of three different and independent from each other testimonies about the name Unogundur, it wouldn't be justified to prefer the uncertain evidence of Agathon before the certain ones and to build a whole theory about the origin of the Bulgarians based only on it". He also states that only one thing sure outside all those hypotheses is "that the Danube Bulgarians are descendants of the Bulgarian tribe Unogundur whose exact ethnic affiliation is not determined, but who were undoubtedly form Turkic origin" (" The Proto-Bulgarians: Lifestyle and Culture", Sofia, 1981, p. 20). Its clear from his work that the Geograph of Ravenna didnt know exactly where Onoghoria is, he knew it is somewhere on the north east black sea, but here he quotes Livanius who knew the exact location and some habits of the locals. There is such suggestion that Onogoria is same as Phanagoria which name is attested as early as 4th century B.C.E. It is generally thought that this was a Greek colony named after its founder. Or maybe it was from the people living even then in that area? The problem is that "Phanagoras" is a completely regular Greek name (meaning something like "birght speaker") although maybe not quite common. From the other hand it is not unfeasible that this could be also rendering of some name like "Hunogur", given that the name of the Huns has been often distorted in the early sources as Phaunoi, Phuni or Funi (Yu. A. Zuev, " Ethnic History of Usuns" - 3. Usuns in antique sources: s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/29Huns/Usuns/ZuevHunsandUsunsEn.htm#Usuns). Also the Syrian author Bar Hebraeus wrote about "the Bulgarians and the Pangurians" ( rbedrosian.com/BH/bh13.htm) - here it seems that "Pangur" is rendering of "Onogur/Hunugur". I suppose that maybe even the name of the modern city Panagyurishte in Bulgaria is a Turko-Slavic rendering of the old "Phanagoria" (with the Slavis suffix -ishte instead of the Greek -ia), just as another Bulgarian city - Tutrakan - seems to be a duplicate of T'mutorokan/Tama-Tarkha (a fortress nearby Phanagoria). So maybe Pangur/Panagur was the Bulgarian pronunciation of Hunugur/Onogur. Still, it is not quite clear what was the exact relation between the Bulghars (Unnogundurs) and the Onoghurs (Hunugurs). It is interesting what Iordanes wrote about the Hunugurs inhabiting the marshes of the Maeotis (the Azov Sea) and being famous with their trade with ermine. The Bulghars from the other hand have beem famous for the same reason (in Afghanistan even today exists the expression "Bulgarian leather" - charm-e Bulghari). The ermine is called in Mongolian bulghan and in Turkic as (from the dictionary of Mahmud Kashgari). The latter reminds of the name of As or Yas people. They are usually identified with the Alans even though the Arabian sources actually distinguish them as Al-Lān ans Al-Ās. Some Russian chronicles relates the Yas to Bulgarians (the wife of the Russian Prince Andrey Bogolyubsky was said to be "Yas, that is Bulgarian by origin" - ÿñûíÿ, áîëãàðêà æå ðîäîìú). The Balkars in Caucasus are even today called Asyjag (àñûéàã, Pl. àñûéæãòæ) by their neighbour Ossetians (supposed to be Alan descendants). It is difficult to tell whether the name of the people has become the name of the ermine or the other way around, or maybe actually both. As I have written before, my opinion is that "Bulghar" was actually an allo-ethnonym that has sticked, while the original name was As. Maybe it was by-name that emerged in Avarian milieu from the word bulghan (Mongolian "ermine") if the Avars (or at least their elite) were actually Mongolian speakers. " As" and " Bulghar" could have been alternative designations in different languages, even though not necessarily always identical. This could explain also the name "Sea of Azov" (Slavic Gen.Pl. of Az) since the As/Bulghars actually lived around it. It is interesting in this regard that the Onogundur state of Kubrat was called in the Byzantine sources "Old or Great Bulgaria" as if they didn't know how to translate the original word which had those two meanings in Greek. Maybe they have heard it from the Alans - indeed in modern Ossetian as means both "magnitude, size" and "old". |
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