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Post by Ardavarz on Apr 24, 2012 0:25:55 GMT 3
Yes, the Hyperborean theme seems to be related to Scythian and Hunnic culture. The famous Hyperborean Abaris - a priest of Apollo who visited Greece in the time of Pythagoras, was most likely Scythian. The cult of the sungod equivalent to the Greek Apollo was more popular in Eastern Steppe amongst the Sakas and the Massagets. The 19-year cycle of returning of Apollo to Hyperborea is related to the luni-solar calendar. Then the myth tells that Hyperboreans were ruled by a dynasty of three priest-kings descendants of Boreas (god of the north wind) which resembles the tripartite division of the Steppe empires, while "Boreas" could represent the word "böri" - wolf (the usual totem of the Steppe dynasties).
As for the swan, the fairy-tale about the swan-girl is a very popular plot all over Eurasia and my late mentor believed that the very name "Hun" was derived from the Buryat word huun - "swan" alluding to some legendary figure of progenitress. Cf. also Lebedia (Slavic "Swan-land") as the country between Don and Dnieper was called according to Constantine Porphyrogenitus.
But of course these are just speculations about symbols and mythology and by themselves they don't prove anything.
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Post by massaget on Apr 24, 2012 12:11:06 GMT 3
Constantine most possibly used a slavic translator when talking with the hungarian envoys, so its quite possibly that the name Lebedia has something to do with the swan. Otherwise hungarian historicians doesnt give much attention to this.
Djagfar Tarihi also supports the swan story, it mentions that the bashkirs were swan believers, but they changed to become believers of snake. (probably sign of changing to an early christianity among them)
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 24, 2012 19:43:15 GMT 3
Constantine most possibly used a slavic translator when talking with the hungarian envoys, so its quite possibly that the name Lebedia has something to do with the swan. Otherwise hungarian historicians doesnt give much attention to this. Moreover, the story of Lebedia exists *only* in Constantine's work!
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Post by Ardavarz on Apr 25, 2012 3:24:21 GMT 3
The topic here is that report of Ibn Rusta about Volga Bulgarians being divided in three parts: Esegels, Bulghars and Burtas. I apologize, I made a mistake here: actually Ibn Rusta wrote about Barsula as one of the Volga Bulgarian tribes, not the Burtas who lived between them and the Khazars. And other Muslim sources have written about this tripartite division too: www.kroraina.com/hudud/hud_51.htmlwww.kroraina.com/hudud/hud_51_c.htmlThe Burtas were not one of the three tribes - that were the Barsuls. Cf. the text of Bar Hebraeus above: "the country of Alan which is Barsalia". It is not clear still whether it was called thus before or after the described migration. But if the Barsuls were the same as Bazilk' from the Armenian sources, they should have been there earlier (much before the late 6th century for sure).
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Post by massaget on Apr 25, 2012 12:53:30 GMT 3
There are towns and family/personal names in hungary derives from Barsil in the form Berczel. The town of Bercel is in the county of Nograd, wich seems to be derived from the volga bulgarian town name Nograt. (this city is shown on Fra Mauro's map before the Russian's conquest of volga bulgaria)
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Post by Ardavarz on Apr 26, 2012 2:38:24 GMT 3
I thought it is from Slavic "Novgrad" - "New City", but this is possible too. The Volga Bulgarian city Nukrat (Nuqrat) is mentioned in "Jagfar Tarihï" as another name of the city Kolïn derived probably from the name of the river Nukrat (Vyatka) and center of the the province with the same name.
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Post by ancalimon on Apr 26, 2012 2:57:23 GMT 3
I thought it is from Slavic "Novgrad" - "New City", but this is possible too. The Volga Bulgarian city Nukrat (Nuqrat) is mentioned in "Jagfar Tarihï" as another name of the city Kolïn derived probably from the name of the river Nukrat (Vyatka) and center of the the province with the same name. There is the obvious possibility that "grad" is related with a Turkic word meaning the name could have been Bulgar Turkic (some kind of Ogur dialect maybe?) *Kōrɨ- : to fence, protect ; | grad<>korut : the thing that protects, fences (something) *Kur- : to erect (a building), to establish *ger- : to spread out, to hang *gErekü : 1 tent, yurt 2 grating of the yurt *koru- : 1 grove, 2 shielded, sheltered place 3 small forest All in all some toponymy in Eastern Europe could as well be Turkic. Like "Belgrad" for example. Maybe meaning something like "erected (long) trees" or "muddy forest" or "forest full of fir trees" ...
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 26, 2012 9:53:09 GMT 3
The name Kremlin indeed derives from Old Turkic Kirmän/Kärmän meaning "Fortress", but I'm not sure about grad.
Belgrade is actually Beograd in Serbian, meaning "White City". If it had a Turkic name, it would have been Aq Balïq or Aq Kirmän (actually the latter name exists for somewhere else).
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Post by Temüjin on Apr 29, 2012 15:05:21 GMT 3
Belgrade is actually Beograd in Serbian, meaning "White City". If it had a Turkic name, it would have been Aq Balïq or Aq Kirmän (actually the latter name exists for somewhere else). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyi
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 30, 2012 18:01:13 GMT 3
Indeed, that one.
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