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Post by Asparuh on Feb 22, 2009 0:26:30 GMT 3
Also very interesting is that actually a west turk leader called Organa from the clan Ashina was the uncle of Khan Kubrat which come to say that Bulgars had connection with the west turks-later Khazars.It is written that Khazars and Bulgars are etnically close nations.Of course later the Khazars became jewish and the Bulgarians-Christians. For me Bulgarians have a lot to do with : Khazars (West turks),Magyars and Scythians.
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Post by Asparuh on Feb 22, 2009 0:31:16 GMT 3
I also have a few questions.
-Were Bulgarians in the past called Scythians ? Many scientist says yes. -Where were the Bulgarians in the ages before christ ? -Did Bulgarians use to join the persian army sometimes ? -Is there a real answer where did we come from ? Scythia,Balhara,Pamir,Kindokush,Altai,or god knows where?
If you can answer me these quiestions i'll be happy,because everything is so lingering.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 22, 2009 0:36:36 GMT 3
When exactly this Organa live? And which sources talk about him? By "past", which centuries do you mean? Well the Oghurs (they hadn't formed the Bulgar union yet) were probably living in Kazakhstan at that time. Nice question Must be from the steppes, I don't pay attention to theories that link the Bulgars with Afghanistan and the Pamirs.
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Post by ALTAR on Feb 22, 2009 0:56:06 GMT 3
-Is there a real answer where did we come from ? Scythia,Balhara,Pamir,Kindokush,Altai,or god knows where? Dear Asparuh, I dont know exact answers of your other questions. But I want to answer the last one with my basic information. The Bulgars came to firstly Idel Ural from the Western Central Asia because of the conflicts between tribes and other possible reasons. They were spread to Caucasia and Northern Steppes of the Black Sea. They established Idel Bulgaria State known Old Great Bulgaria in Byzantine Chronicles. After Kubrat Khans Death, his youngest son Asparukh migrated to the Danube and Balkans with some of his people. They settled there and mixed with local Slavs and other natives. Lastly, they adopted Slav culture and language too. However, their brothers in Idel Ural are called Chuvas today and they speak Old Ancient Bulgarian language which is R type of Turkish language.
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Feb 22, 2009 19:30:04 GMT 3
Never heard of it but if you mean Avars the answer is yes. But the the question I have is: what is the etymology of the name Asparuh/Asparukh? is it Iranian meaning "Face like a horse/ or owner of shining horses"?
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Post by arnewise12 on Feb 22, 2009 21:22:26 GMT 3
This is typicall pan persian statements , that try to show that everything is of persian origin , itsjust makes me sick
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Feb 23, 2009 0:55:35 GMT 3
What is typicall pan persian statements exactly?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 23, 2009 0:56:06 GMT 3
Never heard of it but if you mean Avars the answer is yes. But the the question I have is: what is the etymology of the name Asparuh/Asparukh? is it Iranian meaning "Face like a horse/ or owner of shining horses"? Asparukh is actually Sanskrit Iśvāra (Brave, Hero) which passed via Turkic (as Ïšbara).
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Post by arnewise12 on Feb 23, 2009 0:58:01 GMT 3
Well I explained, and if explain further I think I will be kicked out of the forum for racism anyhow, if u want to know u can talk to me personal.
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Feb 23, 2009 1:10:38 GMT 3
First I believe you got this problem with your choice of words. The chances are that you either didnt bother to read what was the last discussion about or your knowledge is very limited on this matter. He asked about the probabilty of Bulgars to have been hired by Iranian kingdoms. And the answer was No. And the other was a question of etymology.
Pan Persianism?! where did you get this word?
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Post by Asparuh on Feb 23, 2009 2:56:13 GMT 3
:Hello to everybody! Thanks for the answers. First of all i will answer the re-questions of my friend Ehsan Irkoc : I read about Organa in wikipedia on google. His name was Mohodu Heu or Organa.The passage says that they were three Bulgar tribes at that time. The year is 604. The Kutrigurs,the onoghundurs and utighurs. These tribes were actually under the West Turk Khaganate rule. In 604 The west turk Khaganate splits in two sides-East and West.The lands of the Bulgars remained in the West part. In 628 two of the tribes rebelled against the khaganate and this Organa became Sibir or Shibir Khan also known as Tukai Khan. At the same time Kubrat took the rule.So they were actually two persons leading same tribes -uncle and nephew.This is the so called double rule,used from other nations in the steppes. Organa dies in 632 and Kubrat settles The Old Great Bulgaria. Another thing written here is that immediatelly after the beginning of his reign Kubrat fought on two fronts. With the Avars in Pannonia in the west and with the Arabs in the East.Both of battles were victorious. Kubrat just begun the further destruction of the Avar Khanate later finished by Khan Krum in 8 century. Anyway.He also pushed back the Arabs penetrating in the Caucas mountains from south-east leaded by Abd-Er-Rahman. At the end of this material is said also that the end of the Old Great Bulgaria country was due to the presure from The new born Khazar khanate.And also that a powerfull Chinese country called TAN was created in the middle Asia.And the chinese pushed the turks to the west which eventually created the Khazar Khanate. I don't know wheter this is truth or no. I just share it with you exactly in the same way as it is written in wikipedia refering to Kubrat and everything happening around him.Also very interesting is that actually a west turk leader called Organa from the clan Ashina was the uncle of Khan Kubrat which come to say that Bulgars had connection with the west turks-later Khazars.Here is a map of the lands and nations and their names at this time: Thank you!
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Post by Asparuh on Feb 23, 2009 3:40:08 GMT 3
Ok,now to the other question. By past centuries i mean the centuries before christ from 1 to 10 B.C. Where were we at that time? I know ,Scythia,Parthia,Persia,The Hun empire,etc were flourishing empires existing before christ. Were we part of the Scythians or the Sarmatians living between Caspian and Black sea or we came from more eastern point? Here is a very ancient map showing the diferent empires and nations of that time: I would rather stick to the theory that we maybe were part of the Sarmatian or the Scythians people. My knowledge does not let me go further. I also don't except the posiblity that we were turks.
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Post by Asparuh on Feb 23, 2009 3:52:00 GMT 3
I like the theory for the bulgarian origin of Altar. It says with a few words the right thing. I was also thinking the same. And about the name Asparuh,i think Ehsan Irkoc gaved the right explanation.I don't know a lot about this matter. Also i think each time i'm more confident about the sayings of Ehsan that we probably developed as a tribe out of the Oghurs. The names Kutrigurs,Onogundurs and Utighurs have a lot to do with the name oghurs. Ok guys , Bye for now.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 23, 2009 15:36:50 GMT 3
Hmm this "Mohodu Heu or Organa" must be the Western Türk ruler who reigned for a very short time in the year 630. According to the Chinese sources, before becoming the Qaġan of the Western Türks, he held two titles: Moheduo 莫賀咄 (Baġatur) and Yangsu Tejin 鞅素特靳 (Tejin 特靳 is Turkic "Tigin" meaning "Prince"). After becoming Qaġan, the Chinese give several different versions of his imperial title: Moheduo Hou Quli Sipi Kehan 莫賀咄候屈利俟毗可汗, Quli Sipi Kehan 屈利俟毗可汗 and Si Qulisipi Dulu 俟屈利俟毗都陸 (Quli 屈利 is Turkic "Külüg" meaning "Famous"). I have never seen any historical sources linking Kubrat with this Western Türk ruler (though I must admit I am not very good at Western Steppe history, that's why I was asking for sources). At least the Chinese don't give any such info. Yes, Moheduo Hou Quli Sipi Kehan 莫賀咄候屈利俟毗可汗 (as called by the Chinese) was from the Ashina 阿史那 tribe from which the Türk imperial family came from. Before the 630s, the Khazars were also ruled by Yabġus from the the western branch of the Türk imperial family. Depends on how you define "Turk" The Kutrigurs (Qutur Oġur, originially Toqur Oġur or Toquz Oġuz meaning "Nine Tribes"), Utrigurs (Utur Oġur, originially Otur Oġuz or Otuz Oġuz meaning "Thirty Tribes"), Onogurs (On Oġur or On Oġuz meaning "Ten Tribes"), etc were all branchs of a Turkic people called Oġur, which is actually the Old Western Turkic version of Oġuz. The Bulġar union was founded by these groups. Btw, my name is Ihsan Erkoc, not Ehsan Irkoc ;D
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Post by hjernespiser on Feb 23, 2009 20:29:44 GMT 3
I always laugh whenever I see this name "Organa". That's the name of Princess Leia's adopted family in Star Wars...
Wikipedia lists his name as Bu-Yurgan.
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