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Post by Bor Chono on Sept 11, 2006 13:05:25 GMT 3
It is said compare to Mongols, Turks like sword action, they have thin swords(=gives speed) while Manchu & Mongols liked (mace) wide & heavy swords. -Well..Mongols always were few. For exmpl Merkits(=a kazak tribe) were called "Otsgor gertei Olon Merkit" means : "Many Merkits who live in bowing gers." I think not only Merkits, but Kereids, Naimans..etc were bigger in number. Still there are more Kazaks than Mongols. If Mongols were equal in archery with Turk origin ppl, how they will manage to unite & control so many nomadic ppl.? (-maybe with help of God?) If U are few in number U must avoid close combats. So power of Mongol warrior is in distance. Mongol warrior can throw a little axe, spear & short sword. I said before Mongols always had something to throw, in close combats. (Ppl will fear a warriors who can kill many men at once.) Also one advantage of Mongols is that Mongol women are warriors. During defence of sedentary post men do the job to stop & hold the enemy, while women shoot. I`m trying to say that even a Mongol girl can shoot a Samurai down. I`m Agree with Feramez! An Elite archer can load not one but more than two arrows before a Samurai start to run. No armor can help because he will shoot in the eyes. I think all Nomads are good at fast moving targets. Also I guess one thing that makes real Samurai weak is "Bushido"="The way of Samurai". btw WHO VOTED FOR SAMURAI!? & WHY?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 11, 2006 14:18:18 GMT 3
I voted for the samurai.
One thing I forgot to wrote: Medieval Japanese armies had steppe-like tactics but they also had lots of more tactical moves unknown to the steppe peoples.
However, we should not forget that the Japanese armies had a large number of infantries too.
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Sept 11, 2006 16:40:30 GMT 3
If Mongols were equal in archery with Turk origin ppl, how they will manage to unite & control so many nomadic ppl.? (-maybe with help of God?) With the help of Genghis. Leaders like Genghis are very rare in human history, they are born once in a long time. He ruled different nomads as an all-nomadic unifier, this was his official ideology : "ruler of all the people who lived in felt tents". The army of Genghis was comprised by many nomadic peoples who spoke different languages, but were very similar in culture and warfare.
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Post by Boorchi Noyan on Sept 11, 2006 21:18:51 GMT 3
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Post by Bor Chono on Sept 12, 2006 13:09:14 GMT 3
Ok your brightness! ;D I understood your strategic move! Medieval Japanese armies had steppe-like tactics but they also had lots of more tactical moves unknown to the steppe peoples. Would like hear/know about it more. However, we should not forget that the Japanese armies had a large number of infantries too. Chinese always had huge numbered armies.! Ok then, let`s talk about army & strategy not individual fight.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 12, 2006 17:30:03 GMT 3
Well there are too many tactics and I am not sure if my English is enough to translate them from Turkish (I read about them in a recently published Turkish book titled "Samuray"). I will give it a try some time later (not now as I do not have enough time) but do not expect something very good
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Post by Atabeg on Sept 12, 2006 19:29:21 GMT 3
thanks boorchi lots of info
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Post by Bor Chono on Sept 13, 2006 11:07:40 GMT 3
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 13, 2006 13:25:30 GMT 3
Isn't it? ;D
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Post by tengrikut on Sept 13, 2006 15:23:19 GMT 3
hmmm it is a hard question... i think steppe warrior can win easly with his bow. but a heavy cavalry on his horse with a lance, can win a fihgt to a samurai. but on foot, samurai would win. but this topic is mostly about the ability of warriors. so our speaches is not so right
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Post by Bor Chono on Sept 19, 2006 12:39:00 GMT 3
When I visited forums.samurai-archives.com/ a one Rice Farmer(=hehehe one of their Ranks) : "Kuseru Satsujin" said : "-Odd, the complaints generally center around Korean fantatics, yet here we're presented with a Mongolian fantatic..." Their hospitality SucKs!(=even no Hellos!) LOL! These rice eaters have enemies! We forgot about Koreans. Koreans always managed to chase away Samurais. (Koreans claim, even when they being less in number!) Now imagine : Korean warrior VS Steppe warrior. Ofcourse Steppe warrior is better -I think. So Steppe warrior is better than Samurais.
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Post by Nomad (Daz) on Sept 19, 2006 20:29:12 GMT 3
Well I agree with Bor Chono. Nomads were a way better than Samurais. And I have some thought about it. 1) Steppe every man was a worrior. Most of whom were good at horse riding and shooting from a bow. In Japan lower class was lower class. Only a noble blood person could be trained to fight. Moreover it also depended from the wallet he had. Good sansei salary was very big as they tried to teach only a worthy ones. (By bloodline) Be able to use katana for Japanies was a luxury. Be able to fight on horse and use bow for Nomad was common. 2) Japanies katana was good at cutting flesh and bamboo but was not good working with armor made of metal. Even Japs armor was made of flexed materials so katana could keep its sharpness. In 13th century Nomads already had fully armored soldeirs that even bronz sword would brake and iron sword would get bold. 3) Only after 15th century I would say Japans started to look outside and thinking about conquering neighbours and they choice fell on the weakest one Korieans who where already fighting with Chinesee. I can't recall the precise since Nomad started to fight with neighbours.
I can put up other examples but they will have no end. So my conclusion. Steppe rules!!!
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 20, 2006 23:57:26 GMT 3
i also would say Steppe Nomad is better. we ahve to look at the 13th century, not Sengoku Jidai period, it is huge difference when talking about Samurai. in the period of Mongol invasion, the Samurai fought as mounted archer from horseback, but eh could not compete with Mongol because of those reasons: - Bow was too huge, he could only shoot to his left side, but not straight forward, backwards or to his right! aslo, his armour was a little too cumbersome, it also prevented his possibility to shoot to right side. iirc this armour was called O-yori or something like that. - Japanese Horses. they were few in numbers and seriously couldn't compare with breeds from the continent. - Japanese Code fo Honor = stupidity. Samurai would ask for personal duel instead of fighting disciplined as units like Steppe Nomads. Steppe Nomads were always the most disciplined soldiers of all. imagine something like this: ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 21, 2006 1:12:12 GMT 3
Hmm I guess you are right Temujin Shad - Japanese Code fo Honor = stupidity. Samurai would ask for personal duel instead of fighting disciplined as units like Steppe Nomads. Steppe Nomads were always the most disciplined soldiers of all. But we should not forget that steppe warriors also seeked personal duels before major fights. Almost every literature work describing steppe nomad battle actions have detailed accounts of such duels. Plus, the samurai could get disciplined when fighting - at least, more than European knights of that period
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 21, 2006 22:07:56 GMT 3
on top of my head i can only remember one such duel, which was during battle of Kulikovo: duel bewteen Bogatyr Peresvet and Ba'atur Temir Murza (Chelubey)
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