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Post by ancalimon on Sept 25, 2011 23:47:50 GMT 3
Beautiful... Are all those shapes some kind of "astral entities" by the way?  |
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Post by Ardavarz on Sept 26, 2011 2:25:51 GMT 3
"Chilbigen" (also Yelbegen, Jelbegen etc.) means "dragon" as far as I know.
I think I may have read somewhere about some interpretations of those or similar rock images in Altai as "celestial man or Tengri" by some scholars. Unfortunately I don't remember any details, but I believe it had something to do with comparing them with the Chinese sign for "sky" (T'ien) which most ancient form is anthropomorphic and very similar to those images.
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Post by hjernespiser on Sept 26, 2011 8:02:45 GMT 3
Pulled out my copy of Ted Levin's "Where Rivers and Mountains Sing"... Perhaps I'm confusing terms... Eerens are physical objects that represent spirit-helpers called upon to assist a shaman with particular tasks or rituals. Lazo's eerens hung from the sawed-off stubs of a thin tree branch anchored in a weighted stand on his desk: bells, teeth, feathers, a bag of juniper powder, various colored threads and beads. Other eerens - most prominently a wolf skull - were affixed to the back of the shaman's coat that hung from a hook on the wall. also... "People would pay big money in the States to hear throat-singing like that," I joked. Tolya looked serious. "No one ever did this kind of singing for money," he replied. "It's not concert music. It's something I do for my own pleasure, and as an offering to spirits." "Which spirits?" "The local spirit, or master, of the river." When I asked Tolya to clarify what he meant in Tuvan - our conversation had been in Russian - he used the word ee to translate the terms for "master" and "spirit". The same word can mean "owner" or "host" when it refers to humans. When referring to spirits, it is often preceded by cher - "place" or "land" - thus cher eezi is most accurately translated as "local spirit-master" or "local spirit-host." ... Among spirit-masters, those who preside over rivers (xem eezi) and water (sug eezi) are considered exceptionally powerful, for their benevolence affects not only the well-being of humans but also of fish, animals, and nature itself.
"Every natural place has an ee - a master or guardian - who looks after it and protects all the beings that live there," Tolya continued. "Mountains, rivers, caves, springs - all are under the protection of a spirit-master. When you visit that place, you should show your respect to the master." And on a paper I have about Tofa shamanism... Eeren is translated as amulet! |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 26, 2011 21:39:57 GMT 3
In Turkish, İye means owner, and usually it's used in a spiritual context. In Turkish grammar there is also the term İyelik eki meaning "possessive suffix".
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 26, 2011 22:22:25 GMT 3
In Turkish, İye means owner, and usually it's used in a spiritual context. In Turkish grammar there is also the term İyelik eki meaning "possessive suffix". Maybe the shamans "possessed" those eerie beings? |
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Post by hjernespiser on Sept 26, 2011 22:42:49 GMT 3
I had been thinking that the images are eerenner of eeler (you can see how the two terms are related). Maybe they are not, they're just pictures.
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Post by Ardavarz on Sept 28, 2011 3:00:59 GMT 3
There is also a mountain just east of the Caspian named Balqan. But "Balkanization" is a modern term as far as I know, related with the political events that has been happening in the Balkans since the 19th century. The words Balkan and Polis have nothing to do with each other. And Old Turkic Balïq, as I explained here in this forum before, derives from Balčïq meaning "mud, clay", as towns in Central Asia were built with these materials. I just remembered something in this regard - in the "Chulman Tolgau" epic Balkan is the name of the sacred mountain - abode of the gods, which in that poem seems to be identified with Kuenlun. Also Balkan is a by-name of the guardian of that place - the Dog-spirit (patron of the 11th year of the animal cycle). |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 28, 2011 19:55:08 GMT 3
Interesting indeed  |
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 30, 2011 5:22:01 GMT 3
There is also a mountain just east of the Caspian named Balqan. But "Balkanization" is a modern term as far as I know, related with the political events that has been happening in the Balkans since the 19th century. The words Balkan and Polis have nothing to do with each other. And Old Turkic Balïq, as I explained here in this forum before, derives from Balčïq meaning "mud, clay", as towns in Central Asia were built with these materials. I just remembered something in this regard - in the "Chulman Tolgau" epic Balkan is the name of the sacred mountain - abode of the gods, which in that poem seems to be identified with Kuenlun. Also Balkan is a by-name of the guardian of that place - the Dog-spirit (patron of the 11th year of the animal cycle). Are those Alps in the story some kind of primitive humans who are not yet evolved into human beings? And why are they jumping from branch to branch? Nice catch. s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/10_History/KubanChulmanTolgauEn.htm |
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 1, 2011 3:47:54 GMT 3
No, the Alps are spirits or gods who existed even before this world was created. They are called also Divs (from Iranian word for "demon", ancient "deity": Daeva/Deva), but this is usually applied to the evil ones. Alps are discribed rather inconsistently in this poem which obviously includes syncretically fragments of different traditions incorporated in an unified mytho-historical plot. Sometimes they are seen as gods i.e. personifications or masters of the primary elements and natural forces (like fire, wind, thunder, sun, moon, animal and plant life etc.), other times like zoomorphic spirits - every one of them has one or more animal incarnations (most eminent of them represented in the 12-year animal cycle) as minor Alps are most often called just by the name of the their respective animal. (This reminds the old theory about the "zoomorphism" of the Scythian religion which allegedly inspired the famous "animal style" of the Steppe artefatcs). Those two aspects probably represent the animistic and shamanistic phases of the Steppe religion. And also the Alps are sometimes depicted as anthropomorphic entities possessing higher technology like magic ring which allows its bearer to detect and track out any Alp present near-by, ability to create dorbuns ("caves") - underground tunnels for fast travel (worm-holes?), portals to the underworld, flying chariots, "pieces of cold" to instantly freeze any object or being etc. The followers of Erich von Däniken could find much material in the epic if they have known this text . According to the myth the Alps are indeed the ancestors of humans - they were children of Kubar-Babay (the lord of thunder, rain and war, incarnating as Panter/Tiger or Wolf) and the female spirit ( alp-bikä) of Hen (and that's why the humans are both warlike and stupid I believe ;D). The first humans were three men and a woman and I assume they represent the forefathers and the common mother of three major races (white, black and yellow), but this is not explicitly stated in the text - it's just my conjecture. They were already mortal while the Alps are immortal (but still they can be killed by weapons of metal). Is is said that the Alps when killed go to the "reverse side" of the universe and are forbidden to come back, but some of them (the evil Divs) still try to sneak and that's why the sentry of the great wall of the world is hold by the host of fallen heroes (the Madjars). Once the rebel Divs led by the Alp Dardan managed to steal a fleet of flying chariots and set out to conquer the Earth. Since the Alp warlord Kubar-Babay was asleep at that time (an Alp sleeps a thousand years), the hero Targiz (ancestor of Scythian dinasty) had to lead the defence instead of him. In the ensuing battle the Divs' leader Dardan was brought down with his chariot and where he fell the Dardanelles straits formed (the text mentions those events as told in more details in the lost epic "Targiz Tolgau"). As for the Greet Tree (Boy-Terek), it represents the basic structure of the universe. At first the Alps have lived on its branches. It is said that our world is a cup, hold by seven branches of this world tree (if they represent the seven planets, this could allude to the solar system, but that's just a speculation of mine). A later part of the epic tells that only major Alps have had the ability to jump from one branch to another and for that they needed the winged "heavenly bulls" called Jalmats. Only one human was permitted to go to another branch-world of the Great Tree - the Masgut (Massagetan) Prince Birulï-Gazan by the favor of Turun-Abi (a.k.a. Umay - the mother-goddes incarnating as snake, she-wolf, female eagle or crane) whose minion he was. |
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Post by hjernespiser on Oct 1, 2011 4:11:25 GMT 3
OMG! Ancient Astronauts in Turkic stories too?!
BTW, "maadyr" means hero in Tuvan. It is cognate with batur/bator/boghatur
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 1, 2011 14:04:53 GMT 3
Nice Probably yes. |
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 2, 2011 0:18:43 GMT 3
OMG! Ancient Astronauts in Turkic stories too?! BTW, "maadyr" means hero in Tuvan. It is cognate with batur/bator/boghatur I remember reading somewhere about a personage with similar name in the Altaic creation myth who was a messenger of the upper world. He was compared with Maidari which is Mongolian pronunciation of the name of Maitreya or the future Buddha. |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 2, 2011 1:21:37 GMT 3
That is Mangdashire which is indeed a character imported from Buddhism. I also first thought Tuvan Maadyr could be that, but considering the b -> m and t -> d sound changes, it is more probable that it is the Tuvan form of Baghatur.
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Post by ancalimon on Oct 2, 2011 2:59:28 GMT 3
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