Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 15, 2011 4:59:24 GMT 3
For a long time I've been searching about the Yenisei people, but I couldn't find nothing more then what is now told in Wikipedia. I am fascinated by them and I still have much interest in them and it's dissapointing that the Yeniseian people weren't paid much attention to. I searched much to hear a Yeniseian language because I never heard it in my life and because it has no relative languages other than Native-American languages I was very curious. My search attempt was at least succesful and I could find this video I would like to share to you now. A woman talks in the Ket language, a Yeniseian language spoken by 1500 people now. www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw-25zQEc_s&feature=related
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 15, 2011 11:19:09 GMT 3
They are not considered Turkic although I have found that some words they share with Native Americans are also shared among Turkic languages too. (just the obvious ones) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Den%C3%A9-Yeniseian_languagesstone təˀs tsé Türkçe: taþ mouth qō (a)zééʼ Türkçe: aðýz foot kiˀs (a)keeʼ Türkçe: ayak hand laŋat (á)laʼ Türkçe: el although they might not be related at all since I'm not an etymologist. I guess that would mean the Yenisei influenced Turkic languages since they are not considered related to Turkic and Turks are considered isolated. Etymologists are telling me that these are coincidences and Turkic is isolated from Yenisei. They told me Turks originated in Asia and they had no contact with anything Native American because the languages do not share the characteristics of each others gender classification.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 15, 2011 13:48:16 GMT 3
Like you said there is obviously a relation. But the old Turkic words contained more words that were in common with Yeniseian, yet not enough to be understandable by each other.
It still remains a mysterious culture to me.
They are the most unmixed people on earth they say but its culture is nearly extinct. So bad a very old culture is just going to vanish like that.
I once told people around me the Native Americans are originally Asians from the Yenisei people. And they had some very little relation with Turkic and Mongolic people.
They laughed at me so hard.
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 15, 2011 15:26:53 GMT 3
Laughing is good for health. They were probably laughing for health.
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Post by Ardavarz on Sept 16, 2011 3:57:46 GMT 3
One of the many theories about the Xiongnu language suggests indeed that it was Yeniseian.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 19, 2011 4:41:34 GMT 3
It's just absurd the Xiongnu could have been Yeniseian... but it's more acceptable than suggesting that the Xiongnu might have been Indo-European!
WTF, do you know what it means calling the Xiongnu Indo-European? It's a disaster! Impossible! It could change the whole course of history. No human with brains could say such a thing, but some dumb scholar did!
But I would gladly like to hear his evidence. MAYBE he found some Iranian loanwoards in the Xiongnu language and directly took the consensus that they were Indo-European... haha...
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 19, 2011 5:20:13 GMT 3
Modu Tanhu: In my opinion, the mistake everybody makes is to assume that the following are correct:
1-) People were more homogenous in the past than they are today.
2-) People in the past were definitely less advanced and there can be no cataclysm strong enough to erase the evidence of a high civilization.
3-) The term Turk was always an ethnic identity and was never a social class or a symbiotic class or a "single" common thing. (meaning different people with similar ideas or similar beliefs).
4-) The "belonging together quality" of Indo-European is something older than.. for example the "belonging together quality" of Turks.
Conclusion: In my opinion it wouldn't change anything to label them as Indo-European. After all it's just some classification which was made up. It's not real. It's just a made up political name (something like capitalist or communist) and it doesn't have any historical value to call this or that as Indo European other than anger extreme nationalist people who are not yet able to see that Indo-European is a solitary and benighted term. There are simply no contenders to the term "Indo-European". The only famous contender to it is "Mongoloid" (which is a racial & genetic term) and this makes the term IE crumble under its own paralogism. It was first a racial term, then it suddenly had become an ideological term. Someone put some people called Indo-European in Asia on top of Turks and that someone isolated those Indo-Europeans from Turks. Did all those Turkic speaking people come from the North Pole and they suddenly become Turks and entered history with an "empire"?
People keep telling me that "Turk" did not exist in the past but somehow "Indo-European" did exist. I defend that these two concepts are similar in essence but one is real while the other is artificial.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 19, 2011 16:24:26 GMT 3
Ancalimon.. I don't take it seriously don't worry...
What I don't understand is, the Yenisei and Yenisei Khirghiz, are they related? I've never read something that they're related to each other.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 19, 2011 21:11:40 GMT 3
No, the so-called "Yenisseian peoples" are different from the Yenisei Qyrghyz.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 19, 2011 21:35:05 GMT 3
Do you know some good book telling about them?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 19, 2011 21:48:10 GMT 3
About the Yenisseian peoples? Unfortunately no.
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Post by hjernespiser on Sept 19, 2011 22:36:37 GMT 3
Yeniseian is just a linguistic term and has little to do with the Yenisei Kyrgyz, who are named such only because that's where they lived.
Incidentally I have the Vovin article talking about the Xiongnu/Yeniseian link. It doesn't say exactly that the Xiongnu spoke a Yeniseian language. It only analyzes some text in a Chinese source that is said to be in the Jie language. The Jie were a member tribe in the Xiongnu federation. That doesn't mean that all Xiongnu were the same. To me, it isn't absurd that the Jie language was probably Yeniseian. The analysis by Vovin is well done. I haven't seen any real critique of it refuting his claims.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 19, 2011 23:03:24 GMT 3
I thought Yeniseian is something like Altaic or Indo-European. Because the Ket people and Yugh people are considered Yeniseian people. So is saying 'Ket people are Yeniseian' the same as saying 'Turkmen are Altaic'? Or is it saying 'Turkmen are Oghuz Turks'? I also read about the Jie in the book of Gumilëv but he writes rather confusing or unclear. He told somewhere in the beginning of the book the Jung and Di are one of the barbaric tribes that attacked China, then later he said, that the Xiongnu are descendant of the Xunyu and Xianyun, then he says Xiongnu are descendant of Hu people and then he says that Hu were actually five barbaric tribes that weren't related with each other. Later I found out Jung and Di people were also counted as one of the Wu Hu and finally he concludes that the Jung and Di all were proto Xiongnu! Yes it is confusing what I told but he told exactly this in the book! Now I found out that the Xiongnu were first called Jung and Hu, then Xunyu, then Guifang, then Xunyu, then Xianyun and finally Xiongnu by the Chinese. But the Jung and Di were according to Gumilëv in the beginning of the book western that were with common descent, while the Di are are ancestor of Sichuan people? While the proto-Xiongnu were northern barbanians, descending from the Hu and Xunyu people? ? Gumilëv confused me...
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Post by hjernespiser on Sept 20, 2011 10:11:32 GMT 3
When I write that something is a linguistic term, I mean to say something like "The Ket people are Yeniseian" like saying the "Turkmen are Altaic". The languages that those people speak are theorized to be genetically (or genotype-like) related. I think it can be more complex than that as Ket and Yugh people are also probably related by blood. I don't really know any details in that regard. That isn't to say that other nearby groups are not related to them by blood. It is believed that certain groups around the area are Turkicized or Uralicized Yeniseians. There just isn't enough data available to form solid conclusions. What seems clear is that the Yeniseian languages were more widespread at some point in the past. That's a little sad to me because it is a small glimpse into an understanding that there were probably a lot more other languages in the past with no living relatives today that we have absolutely no idea about because no records were left. What kind of cool and different cultures were there that spoke those languages? We may never know!
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 20, 2011 16:15:18 GMT 3
But they really are fascinating to me and I would like to visit Yenisei and meet some Ket people. They were so isolated that they are the only most unmixed people on earth. Yeniseian people remained 80%-90% original.
So sad nowadays Europeans are teaching us the tortures in medieval Europe and the bloody massacre Crusades (which they are glory of). They should teach about the Yenisei, Xiongnu, the Chinese history, about Salah ad-Deen, the Hashashins, the Seljuq, the Soghdians, the Native-Americans, the Berbers, Egyptians, old Persia, the Aramaic script whom many people adopted it from, how the oh so Holy Roman empire was defeated by the Turks.
But noooo for 12 years in each history class they taught us the medieval Europe tortures, their glorifying crusades. Believe me this is all I've been taught here in Belgium, in one of the best schools of whole the world!
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