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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 20, 2011 18:52:27 GMT 3
But that's normal because Belgium is in Europe  |
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 20, 2011 18:58:17 GMT 3
No that's not normal. Even our teachers say to use we should not be limited to only the crusade and torture history. Teachers requested several times to change history course, to teach history of Central Asia, America and Africa, but nooooooo these dumb ministers just won't do it because they think it would be propaganda.
And why should they do it? They hate us.
BTW. Not every country is limited as Belgium is. In other countries world history is taught together with "European" history.
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Post by hjernespiser on Sept 20, 2011 19:14:13 GMT 3
It's worse. "European" history almost always means "Western European" history: Britian, France, Spain, Germany. I once thought that Magyars were Gypsies due to the deplorable coverage of the history of the rest of Europe that I had received.
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Post by aynur on Sept 20, 2011 22:15:27 GMT 3
That all depends on the country, the education system and the school/university itself. Here in Finland I remember extensive research about the Mongol empire in class and its successor states. We never glorified the Crusades and all the history teachers that I have come across deny the fact that they were predominantly religiously motivated. We were also explained in great detail how the Germanic 'barbarians' who laid turmoil to the Western Roman Empire gradually became the cultural and military continuators of the Roman legacy and how they shaped the foundation of a new Europe during Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages in detail. I must admit, though -- the greatness of the Roman Empire was indeed a bit too exaggerated at times.
Look, it's only natural. It's a European school and I doubt a European student would do much with information about the Xiongnu since they were a power that didn't have any effect whatsoever on the political, geographical and ethnic compositions of Europe at the time. Nor did Sogdians or ancient China for that matter.
And the Holy Roman Empire wasn't much touched by the Ottoman Turks. It was, indeed, involved in many military incursions against the Ottomans but it disintegrated from within because of political and geographical reasons that I'm too tired to write about here.
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But back on topic -- yes, there have been many suggestions that the language of the elite of the Xiongnu was Yeniseian but I would personally regard it as either Turkic or Mongolic. There is a distinct relation between Yeniseian and some North American languages. I think someone already pointed the Dene-Yeniseian theory (not much a theory any longer as it is being accepted by linguists evermore). They could be the binding bridge between the American continent and Eurasia, possibly old human languages that split when people began to migrate through the Bering Strait.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 21, 2011 3:42:12 GMT 3
I don't care if it has connection with European culture or not. I am now just NOTHING with the information I got from history lessons.
It's not important to learn something related to Europe or to wherever you are living but it is important to learn the important. How sad would it be thinking the Xiongnu were defeated by one single girl called Mulan? HA HA HA.
Or the prejudice that people from Turkey are Mongols and Turks are settled there because of the Mongol invasion?
Or to think that the reason for building the great wall of China were not the Xiongnu but the Mongols, which is now one of the wonders of the world?
Or to think that yoghurt, presented to the Europeans by the Turks, is thought to be found by Europeans?
Or to think that Romanian people are Gypsy while they are not the same?
Or to think the Ancient Greek who were famous of homosexuality and the body perfection obsession were taught to us like they were the only ones with high civilization?
Or to think that the crusaders were seen as hero's when teacher is telling us, while the 'evil Saracens' are monstrous and inhuman and the massacres done by the 'Holy Crusaders' were just not mentioned?
Or say what, I can still go on, if you want of course.
And by the way. The eastern Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire is DESTROYED BY THE TURKS like how the Allied destroyed the Ottoman. But one big man was brave enough to fight alone with the poor people, the women and children as soldiers and still win against those 7 powers during the occupation. My Belgian teacher taught me that.
It's understandable Native Americans were originally Asian, from the Yeniseian people. Their language are related and they have Asian features.
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Post by aynur on Sept 21, 2011 14:22:32 GMT 3
Yes, it is true that the Great Wall was built to deflect attacks by nomadic confederations, namely the Xiongnu and many Europeans tend to not know that. And yes, many Europeans misinterpret the origin of yoghurt to the Roman Empire or Ancient Greece (it's probable the Romans were adept at making a dessert similar to yoghurt invented by Turkic tribes).
Not all Greeks were homosexuals or pederasts before and after Alexander the Great's time. The Spartans and Syracusans are prime examples. 'Body perfection' was hardly homoerotic since it was often linked with masculinity and traits such as bravery and defiance. I don't want to attack the Ottoman state in any way, but they too practiced an institution named köçek (you might as well wiki it). There are perverts in every civilizations that have surrounded themselves in splendour and the so called 'gourmet of life.'
The Crusades were the European response to Arabic expansion throughout the Middle East and North Africa, but their religious orientation was minimal. Primarily, people joined the Crusades because of greed of wealth, land and occasionally the promise of a better life since Europe at the time of the Middle Ages was rotting from within -- no wonder due to Rome's destruction. I can't recall the Saracens being referred to as 'evil' or 'barbaric' here in Finland because they were not. And I believe Europeans have lived with the Gypsies long enough not to confuse them with Romania. Ignorant people, of course, remain. The Byzantine Empire on the other hand was a mere shadow of what is once was when the Ottomans laid siege to Constantinople and were successful in deflecting attacks by the Seljuk Turks in the past.
My father always told me -- the more you know history, the more you understand the world we live in today and the faults in it. And he was absolutely right.
But nevermind, we got completely off topic ;D.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 21, 2011 15:38:20 GMT 3
Accept it or not. The bloody crusades are seen as a good act and if it was not to hold back the Arabic expansion, like you said they were greedy. Their goal was to spread Christianity by conquering Jerusalem and the pope already made propaganda about the muslims so they just massacred every child and woman. But we had Salah ad-Deen and Kilij Arslan to send them back from where they came.
And indeed, they deflected the Seljuq Turks. But the Seljuq Turks were not very interested in Constantinople whereas the Ottomans were very interested.
Don't forget the Battle of Manzikert, where the Greek's main forces + Turkic mercenaries were used against the Seljuq Turks. Also don't forget the Greeks were 3 times bigger and when some part of the Turkic mercenaries remembered their roots they went to the Seljuq side, they were almost equal.
But we still wone with the 'Crescent tactic'.
Off topic or not what goes around comes back around.
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Post by Ardavarz on Sept 22, 2011 3:16:03 GMT 3
About the Great Wall of China - most people don't know that it wasn't built solely for military purposes, but it has served mainly for taxation control over trade between China and nomadic states. Likewise it wasn't so much for repulsing the sporadic attacks of the nomads outside, as to keep the poor Chinese population inside. The life conditions of common Chinese peasants were usually so miserable, that most of them have yearned to escape amongst the nomads where "living is easy and joyful" as an old document says. Funny enough, the function of the Great Wall was not much different from that of the Berlin Wall during the 20th century Cold War.
And in Eastern Europe the Crusades are not seen exclusively as good act. The very word "crusader" here has rather negative connotation as metaphor of fanatic or someone who excuses his aggression with some allegedly higher cause. For instance Bulgarians and Poles have had quite unpleasant experiences with crusaders and they are still proud to have defeated them.
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Post by hjernespiser on Sept 22, 2011 3:41:16 GMT 3
The Hungarians had to beat back a few Crusader armies too.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 22, 2011 4:05:43 GMT 3
I live in Belgium I live in Europe and I live amongst the Europeans and they are proud of the crusades. I am repeating this for the third time and I have no reason to lie about something like that.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 22, 2011 13:49:45 GMT 3
About the Great Wall of China - most people don't know that it wasn't built solely for military purposes, but it has served mainly for taxation control over trade between China and nomadic states. Likewise it wasn't so much for repulsing the sporadic attacks of the nomads outside, as to keep the poor Chinese population inside. The life conditions of common Chinese peasants were usually so miserable, that most of them have yearned to escape amongst the nomads where "living is easy and joyful" as an old document says. Funny enough, the function of the Great Wall was not much different from that of the Berlin Wall during the 20th century Cold War. Indeed - Mongolia was a favorite refuge place for political asylum seekers whose dynasty was overthrown by another one (in cases like the members of the Sui Dynasty escaping to the Gokturks when the Tang seixed power). |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 22, 2011 13:50:29 GMT 3
I live in Belgium I live in Europe and I live amongst the Europeans and they are proud of the crusades. I am repeating this for the third time and I have no reason to lie about something like that. La olm adamların bir şey dediği yok, niye tersleyip duruyoñ şunları? |
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 22, 2011 14:00:15 GMT 3
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 22, 2011 14:19:34 GMT 3
But they were also attacked by Crusaders. Remember the capture of Ragusa by the Crusaders from the Hungarians at the beginning of the 4th Crusade.
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 22, 2011 15:05:09 GMT 3
the whole 4th crusade was a huge backstab of the eastern christian allies |
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Hungarians were themselves Crusaders....