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Post by abdulhay on Jan 9, 2010 0:02:42 GMT 3
Is it true that some of the tribes among kazakhs are turkified mongols, becasue then I see some kazakhs they look very mongolic and not turkic at all,
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Post by Bor Chono on Jan 9, 2010 10:18:24 GMT 3
Is it true that some of the tribes among kazakhs are turkified mongols, becasue then I see some kazakhs they look very mongolic and not turkic at all, For a long time we were stealing women & horse from each other! ;D
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Post by sarmat on Jan 10, 2010 4:52:34 GMT 3
Is it true that some of the tribes among kazakhs are turkified mongols, becasue then I see some kazakhs they look very mongolic and not turkic at all, What do you mean by "Turkic" look? The surviving images of first people called "Turks" i.e. Gok Turks look very "Mongolic." And there is no anything like "standard Turkic look."
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Post by abdulhay on Jan 17, 2010 2:52:10 GMT 3
the gökturks have small eyes but they look different from mongols, they dont look as much asian as they do because since asian hun empire time there has been inter racial marriages between iranic and turkic steppe people just look at the findings they have in pazyryk and other places as well, dont remember them thought
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Post by kenmirzz on Jan 17, 2010 13:34:55 GMT 3
Mr abdulhay my friend, I supposed you should visit those Gokturk monuments in Mongolia. But I know many people who subscribe to this belief of yours that ancient Turkic somehow look very European or Iranic vis a vis the Mongoloid Mongol. This is false. Ancient Mongols and Turkic people share similar feature and more often than not, both tribes integrate and assimilate quite well to each other depending on the majority.
I think Mr Sarmat and Mr Ihsan can elaborate more, they are the experts here and have been dwelling on this subjects for a long time. I am just a novice.
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Post by Subu'atai on Jan 17, 2010 15:30:29 GMT 3
The "Are we European? Or are we Asian?" debate again. Congratulations, you have learnt something about 18th century Western European racialism still in use in the 21st century.
"There are only 3 colors, and everyone else is just a mix of everything".... ROFL
Funny, one my wife's Euro friends told me of this male chauvanistic psychoshrink only a hundred years ago, but his theories were kicked to the trash. Feminism wave and all that etc. Yet racialism still exists in force.
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Post by sarmat on Jan 17, 2010 19:35:05 GMT 3
the gökturks have small eyes but they look different from mongols, they dont look as much asian as they do because since asian hun empire time there has been inter racial marriages between iranic and turkic steppe people just look at the findings they have in pazyryk and other places as well, dont remember them thought Could you please explain me how Kul Tigin's look is exactly dfferent from the typical Mongoloid look? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kul_Tigin
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Post by kenmirzz on Jan 18, 2010 5:10:46 GMT 3
Just to add as supplementary.
I have a friend who study in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan. She told me that the Kyrgyz there tend to blame the Mongol for their somehow asiatic Mongoloid look. That enraged me to certain extent. I explained that ancient Turkic and Mongol people share similar facial and anthropological features, if not exactly identical. The original yenisei Kyrgyz was not even the native of Kyrgyzstan but later being pushed from Western Siberia to their current location now. Those description of Kyrgyz being green eyed and blondie maybe referring to the Indo-European nomads that inhabited those area surrounding Lake Isyk-Kul before.
Looking at the photos of Kyrgyz people, I see obvious similarities with the Mongols. Kind of sad having to put up with racist denial of own heritage.
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Post by sarmat on Jan 18, 2010 10:26:44 GMT 3
Just to add as supplementary. I have a friend who study in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan. She told me that the Kyrgyz there tend to blame the Mongol for their somehow asiatic Mongoloid look. Yes, this stupid myth is very popular in Central Asian states. This is the result of Westernization. And "the Black myth" about Mongols which main idea that Mongoloid, Mongol and Asian is "barbaric and uncivilized" and White, European and Western is "civilized" Many in new Central Asian states elites would like to see themselves closer to Western ideals and distant themselves as far as possible from Mongolian savages. That enraged me to certain extent. I explained that ancient Turkic and Mongol people share similar facial and anthropological features, if not exactly identical. The original yenisei Kyrgyz was not even the native of Kyrgyzstan but later being pushed from Western Siberia to their current location now. Right. There are still descendants of these Yenisei Kyrgyz they are called Khakhakhs and live in Khakhasia region of Russia. Those description of Kyrgyz being green eyed and blondie maybe referring to the Indo-European nomads that inhabited those area surrounding Lake Isyk-Kul before. This, in fact, is interesting because the case of Kyrgyz is quite special. Green and blue eyed people among Kyrgyzs it's not very uncommon. Besides, their main halpogroup is R1a the same with Tajiks and Eastern European people, like Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, etc. IMHO it points to a significant mixture with IE speaking nomades i.e. Scythians.
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Post by Subu'atai on Jan 18, 2010 15:18:39 GMT 3
Yes, this stupid myth is very popular in Central Asian states. This is the result of Westernization. And "the Black myth" about Mongols which main idea that Mongoloid, Mongol and Asian is "barbaric and uncivilized" and White, European and Western is "civilized" Many in new Central Asian states elites would like to see themselves closer to Western ideals and distant themselves as far as possible from Mongolian savages. Heh yup, and if being a "civilised bloke" means acting in such pathetic subhuman racialist behavior - I'd rather be an "uncivilised savage barbarian" any day. Making the labels our enemies pin on us into badges of pride - this is an Oirat tradition ;D As well as genetic drift, where light hair/eyes comes from in the first place.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 18, 2010 22:37:01 GMT 3
I think this theory was established by the Oghuzist Turkish historians like Bahaeddin Ögel, Faruk Sümer and İbrahim Kafesoğlu, because they defended this before the fall of the USSR, back in the 1970s-80s. Uhm not at all actually, the depiction was made for the Kyrgyz living in the Yenisei region By the way, two Gokturk qaghans were also described in Chinese sources as having colored eyes.
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Post by abdulhay on Jan 23, 2010 1:17:25 GMT 3
Well kul tigin dont look mongolic but rather turkic,
we dont know if he was tall or not
looking asian doesnt mean u are looking mongolic,
typicall turkic that difference from mongols is that they are taller and have more mixed genes
Also I bet kul tigin had facial hair which mongols dont have, but Its something I cant say for sure.
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Post by sarmat on Jan 23, 2010 1:30:19 GMT 3
Well kul tigin dont look mongolic but rather turkic, we dont know if he was tall or not looking asian doesnt mean u are looking mongolic, typicall turkic that difference from mongols is that they are taller and have more mixed genes Also I bet kul tigin had facial hair which mongols dont have, but Its something I cant say for sure. Really, so by looking at the stone head you were able to detect that it's taller and has more mixed genes? Good work Sherlock Holmes, you made my day !
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Post by abdulhay on Jan 23, 2010 1:47:44 GMT 3
Its really strange, when did I say that,
dont u understand english? look what I wrote,
When I referd to turkic people I mean people of today are taller and are more hairy than their forefathers were due to interracial marriages with iranic people.
I didnt say that we was taller , look at what I wrote
I said we dont know if he was tall or not, if he were tall than it indicates that he has mixed genes, but something we cant know from statue
Please read before u comment and I suggest that u learn proper english before juding
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Post by sarmat on Jan 23, 2010 5:24:01 GMT 3
You said that Kul Tigin looked Turkic and added that the difference between Turks and Mongols is that the Turks are taller and have more mixed genes.
And please do not teach the others how to learn English while writing with numerous grammatical and orphographical mistakes.
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