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Post by hakuzari on Jan 5, 2009 11:01:48 GMT 3
Hi
I would like to know the mongolian name for the Nine Yak Tails standard ,and if any one knows its meaning and origin.
thank you!
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Post by Subu'atai on Jan 5, 2009 12:23:57 GMT 3
You mean this?  |
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Post by hakuzari on Jan 5, 2009 14:01:28 GMT 3
yeap!
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 5, 2009 14:36:48 GMT 3
It is Tuq or Tugh in Classical Mongolian, the same with the Turkic version; indeed, the word is a borrowing from Turkic.
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Post by hakuzari on Jan 5, 2009 16:04:38 GMT 3
do you know from wich branch of turkc it comes from? what is the etymology of the word?
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Post by Subu'atai on Jan 5, 2009 16:49:51 GMT 3
Or the Turkic word is a borrowing from Mongolic  Hehe don't know much about the standard itself though. |
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Post by Atabeg on Jan 5, 2009 22:27:36 GMT 3
what does tug mean in mongoian besides Banner?
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Post by snafu on Jan 6, 2009 5:06:49 GMT 3
As far as I know the nine tails was the emblem (tuq) of Temujin's clan and he applied it to the whole Mongol nation after he unified it. Every clan had its own emblem and banner, and it was believed that a the spirit of a great ancestor (sulde) lived in the banner and protected the clan. Before battled the banner would be blessed with milk, and sometimes after battles enemy prisoners would be sacrificed to the banner.
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Post by Subu'atai on Jan 6, 2009 6:22:09 GMT 3
And LOL, I remember the nine tails used as a banner with Jamukha's army in the Russian movie "Mongol" haha
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Post by hakuzari on Jan 6, 2009 8:04:38 GMT 3
was human sacrifice a common practice in the mongolian sociaty?
first time im hearing of this...
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Post by Subu'atai on Jan 6, 2009 8:14:44 GMT 3
Yeah we ate babies and sucked brains out of prisoners too
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Post by snafu on Jan 6, 2009 9:33:08 GMT 3
Not really a common practice. For religious rituals it was usually animals that were sacrificed. But some rituals did include killing people. Lots of people were sacrificed in Temujin's name when he died. The same for other powerful steppe leaders.
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Post by Subu'atai on Jan 6, 2009 10:41:50 GMT 3
To be honest I wouldn't call it sacrifice but execution itself. Though the burial sacrifices existed.
That ritual was to make sure their graves were never found. Those who buried Temujin were killed, then those who killed were killed, and so on and so on until no one will ever know his final resting place.
As for the banner "ritual" it seems like a nice way to execute prisoners. Rather humane to be honest compared to other forms of steppe executions including boiling people alive (Jamukha's execution against Temujin's generals), tying them up between four horses and pouring molten metal down their throats (Execution of the Persian governors who contributed to the killing of Temujin's ambassadors prior to the war).
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 6, 2009 21:55:40 GMT 3
It is from the standart Old Turkic, with the root word Tu- meaning "to close, to block", according to Tuncer Gülensoy (Annemarie von Gabain and Sir Gerhard Clauson had thought that this word drives from Chinese Du 纛, but both Gerhard Dörfer and Wolfram Eberhard objected to this view, saying that the Chinese borrowed this word from Turkic).
Nothing.
We know that the Naimans, Kereys and Jamuqa also had Tughs. It wasn't special to Temüjin himself, but when he became the great ruler, he was given the Tuq with nine tails.
Indeed, human sacrifices were rare among Steppe societies.
The governor was not Persian, he was Turkish, with the name Inalčuq and with the title Qadïr Khan.
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Post by keaganjoelbrewer on Jan 7, 2009 15:42:49 GMT 3
hehe... Inalchuq was a silly silly man
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