Soviet Russia/Russian Federation

[Subu'atai]

I've just read the "Turks in WW2" thread.

It seems there was a lot of criticism against Arslan who though had some Russ propaganda in him, he made some key points. I'm part Rus as well sure, I'm not hiding it from anyone here. However I don't support what the Russian Federation government is doing to many ethnicities.

He was right that the U.S.S.R. did benefit the Altai, industralisation is important in the modern world. As the Europeans expanded during the colonial era with their modern weaponry - guns and cannons, the Japanese for example, industrialised and modernised so d**n fast that it even left room for imperialistic ambitions, defeating the Russians, as well as the British, French, and Dutch at their own game in their pacific colonies.

Also, the U.S.S.R. was a political union, not an ethnic one. Soviets did not comprise of just Slavs, and you should all know that historical fact. However, yes it is true that they pushed assimilation into Russian culture. Equality was not perfect, but far better then that of Nazi Germany. Or western countries such as the United States who are probably the successors of Neo-Nazism.

My grandmother who is Slav, is a Tatar descendant, and her family fought with the U.S.S.R. along with other Turks to defeat fascist Germany. Both regimes were screwed up sure, but Communism didn't hold such ethnic hate against the Tatars.

He is also semi-right that the Soviets were descendants of the Golden Khanate. The reason why I say semi-right, is because I feel UKRAINE are the descendants, not Muscovites. Note that Tatars fought alongside the Rus with the Cossacks. Also, do note that Tatars have mixed heavily with the Slavic population as well. Perhaps few have maintained their roots like my grandmother, but yes in many cases our blood rises to surface like oil and water.

The Rus did not destroy the Golden Khanate, we all know what happened I hope - if not then here: Tokhtamysh reunited the Golden Khanate, won against the Muscovites, but decided to betray his ally Timur of the Ilkhanids.

This destroyed the Golden Khanate as Timur proved to be a much better strategist then Tokhtamysh. Timur destroyed the Golden Khanate, then fragmenting it, allowing the Muscovites to reap the spoils. Altai division and internal fragmentation is what lead to our fall - we all know that. You can't blame the Russians for that all the time, hell you people are even giving them too much credit.

He is also right that the Russian Federation is a collection of multi-ethnic republics. Yes government positions also filled up by non-Slavic people. You don't get the same in China, or even any other foreign nation with multi-culturalism.

Now, I relate with the Russian people as well and I too have never had any bad experiences with the common person. However, I'm not ignorant of the level of assimilation and cultural genocide they are doing to all non-Slavics, Tatars, Kalmyks, Buryats and Siberians included.

Also independence has been discussed in the other topics in which I've posted. However yes, the last post on the "Turks in WW2" thread is correct - Economical dependency. Just like the U.S. and Chinese are economically dependent on each other.

Our economical issues rely on just geography - we are landlocked. Unite the Altai and establish the link from the mediterreanean to the pacific ocean. Somehow, someway, and the dependency on Russia will cease forever.

EDIT: Corrected terminology

[Verinen Paroni]

Would you please stop using term Uralic, when you talk about soviets or russians!

Original russians (rus-vikings) were from Scandinavia. They assimiliated many nations to them, also many Uralic nations.

I am an Uralic and I am not russian!

I am sorry for using harsh language, but I feel very disturbing when someone (like soviets) who murdered alot of Uralics, are now called Uralics...

[Subu'atai]

The Norse/Novgorodians were assimilated by Uralics and Slavics as well, making Russians a hybrid. They are not a 'purebred' race. Fine perhaps I am wrong to use the term Uralic.

Communists murdered many original Uralics, you can't pin your hate on all the Rus. Mongolian communist leader Choibalsan did the exact same thing. It's communism, it's political, not racial.

[Verinen Paroni]

Jun 11, 2008 12:55:04 GMT 3 Subu'atai said:

The Norse/Novgorodians were assimilated by Uralics and Slavics as well, making Russians a hybrid. They are not a 'purebred' race. Fine perhaps I am wrong to use the term Uralic.

Communists murdered many original Uralics, you can't pin your hate on all the Rus. Mongolian communist leader Choibalsan did the exact same thing. It's communism, it's political, not racial.

Firstly, thank you for correcting term.

Russians are quite mixed people.

You are right that it was communism, but however, in many places their targets were local minorities (like in Occupied Karelia). And they aso moved alot of people to different areas.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Communist Soviet Russia used far more Russian nationalist policies than Tsarist Russia did. This is perhaps one of the most interesting facts about history. Tsarist Russia was a real empire which did not interfere into it's subjects' cultures, religions and languages. OTOH, Soviet Russia did, except on the later-occupied Baltic states. It's true that a non-Russian or non-Slav could rise very high in the administration of the USSR, but they had to get completely Russified before doing that.

USSR was surely not a "communist" (actually, there can't be "communist states", because there are no states in communism; but there can be "socialist states"), more crrectly, socialist state.

Btw, Temür (Timur) was a Chagatayid, not an Ilkhanid

[Subu'atai]

Jun 11, 2008 13:13:48 GMT 3 Verinen Paroni said:

Firstly, thank you for correcting term.

Russians are quite mixed people.

You are right that it was communism, but however, in many places their targets were local minorities (like in Occupied Karelia). And they aso moved alot of people to different areas.

No problem

Yes I know of what you're talking about, I hate it too. My own Kalmyks suffered as well as the Russians backstabbed them after the death of Ayuka Khan.

Years of crap happened from there. After the rebellion against Soviet Union during Operation Barbarossa many Soviet officials accused Kalmyks of siding with the Nazis (though many Kalmyks also served and became war heroes in Stalingrad and onwards). They deported lots of people from their homes and many died on the way.

It's stuff that like this that though I promote friendship and understanding with the Russian people, also bringing to light the good things (also to let my Altai brothers know about their... neighbours ) - I spit on many past and present Russian government officials like a Nazi with a Jew and wouldn't hesitate to throw any one of those sick farks into a gas oven!

Jun 11, 2008 14:10:30 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

Communist Soviet Russia used far more Russian nationalist policies than Tsarist Russia did. This is perhaps one of the most interesting facts about history. Tsarist Russia was a real empire which did not interfere into it's subjects' cultures, religions and languages.

[/u] OTOH, Soviet Russia did, except on the later-occupied Baltic states. It's true that a non-Russian or non-Slav could rise very high in the administration of the USSR, but they had to get completely Russified before doing that.

USSR was surely not a "communist" (actually, there can't be "communist states", because there are no states in communism; but there can be "socialist states"), more crrectly, socialist state.

Btw, Temür (Timur) was a Chagatayid, not an Ilkhanid [/quote]

I have to disagree with the bolded, Tsarist Russia was also responsible for nationalist policies as it backstabbed divided Kalmykia after Ayuka Khan died. Perhaps less maybe - but they weren't innocent at all.

The russified-qualification is a flaw yes, but it's better then complete 'no you can't enter government'. An intelligent leader can play both sides at will - however, such a leader could be completely... unstable

And whoops d**n it, I get Ilkhanid/Temurid confused sometimes, d**n my terminology sucks

Cheers for the prompt replies though! ;D

[Temüjin]

i cannot agree here. you fell victim of the common self-portrayal of the USSr, but the truth looks more ugly:

- it was the Soviets who first started to kill people based on ethnicity before Germany even became a Facist state. most early victims of Gulags were Cossacks & Germans. Soviets never granted a Cossack SSR and the German SSR was disbanded and the population forcibly removed to Asia during ww2.

- Soviets portray themselves as victims of Nazis, yet it was the Soviets who willingly allied themselves to the Nazis and helped them destroy Poland, killed Polish officers at Katyn, invaded Finland and the Baltic states and surpressed their national identity. you already mentioned what they did to the Kalmyks but they were not the only ones.

- Turkic soldiers in ww2. this is maybe hard to accept but those are facts: Nazi Germany had volunteers from almost all countries of europe, every legion was allowed to use their national insignia and identification. people are always fast to mention that Nazis want to kill everyone who is not nordic-"aryan", the reality was obviously much less extreme, foreign volutneers made up at least 1/3 of the Waffen SS, even many ex-Soviet citizens, minority or Rus joined the ranks of Germany to fight against Communism and Red Terror. the life of a Red Army soldier was worth nothing, minority or Russian, it doesn't matter so it is a really moot argument that the Soviets made no difference between nationalities in the Army. all Red Army soldiers were dressed equally and no national differences were allowed to be worn. Nazi Germany also separated Czechoslovakia and made Slovakia idnependent, same with Yugoslavia and Croatia. after the end of the Red rule, those coutnries again opted to democratically make themselves independent, so it is obvious that Hitler not only understood the national feelings of minorities but also used them to his advantage. the Communist authorities of course played on the feelings of their supressed people and they welcomed their enthusiasm with a laugh, they would be the cannon-fodder to support their own regime. so, using Slovakia and Croatia as examples, there is no evidence to support the idea that Hitler wanted to take away the lands and lifes of the Soviet minorities, on the contrary, he encouraged those and many fought willingly in his Army.

- Czarist Imperial Russia was a hundredfold more liberal towards their minorities than Soviet Russia could ever hope for. almost every minority enjoyed a privileged status in their society, Germans (many army commanders and other officials, free peasants, exempted from military service), Cossacks (border guards, free peasants etc), Fins, even Poles (free peasants) and also some Caucasian people. of course minorities could never get high offices, this is because it was a monarchy, not because it was less liberal than Soviets. though even the Romanov line was heavily Germanized and was technically already a German dynasty, the full form is Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp, so even foreign nobles could become rulers of Russia, like Danish etc.

He is also semi-right that the Soviets were descendants of the Golden Khanate. The reason why I say semi-right, is because I feel UKRAINE are the descendants, not Muscovites. Note that Tatars fought alongside the Rus with the Cossacks. Also, do note that Tatars have mixed heavily with the Slavic population as well. Perhaps few have maintained their roots like my grandmother, but yes in many cases our blood rises to surface like oil and water.

The Rus did not destroy the Golden Khanate, we all know what happened I hope - if not then here: Tokhtamysh reunited the Golden Khanate, won against the Muscovites, but decided to betray his ally Timur of the Ilkhanids.

well this is factually incorrect. Ukraine for most part is Slavic, the only Slav people that heavily mixed with Turkic people are the Cossacks, and they fought together with Crimean tatars against Polish supression. anyways, the crimea is nowadays predominantely Russian, Crimean tatars were deportet durign SOVIET rule (as opposed to Czarist Russia). also Tokhtamysh LOST against the Muscovites at Kulikovo Polye. the only true sucessor fot he Golden Khanate is Idel-Ural, Russia/Muscovy NEVER, it was them who destroyed it.

[Subu'atai]

Jun 12, 2008 0:16:59 GMT 3 Temüjin said:

i cannot agree here. you fell victim of the common self-portrayal of the USSr, but the truth looks more ugly:

- it was the Soviets who first started to kill people based on ethnicity before Germany even became a Facist state. most early victims of Gulags were Cossacks & Germans. Soviets never granted a Cossack SSR and the German SSR was disbanded and the population forcibly removed to Asia during ww2.

Elaborate on this please, and explain.

- Soviets portray themselves as victims of Nazis, yet it was the Soviets who willingly allied themselves to the Nazis and helped them destroy Poland, killed Polish officers at Katyn, invaded Finland and the Baltic states and surpressed their national identity. you already mentioned what they did to the Kalmyks but they were not the only ones.

Yes I know of this but not just Soviet Russia is involved here as you declared yourself - Nazi Germany was involved as well in Poland. Finland and the Baltic states are another story though. I can't argue with that.

- Turkic soldiers in ww2. this is maybe hard to accept but those are facts: Nazi Germany had volunteers from almost all countries of europe, every legion was allowed to use their national insignia and identification. people are always fast to mention that Nazis want to kill everyone who is not nordic-"aryan", the reality was obviously much less extreme, foreign volutneers made up at least 1/3 of the Waffen SS, even many ex-Soviet citizens, minority or Rus joined the ranks of Germany to fight against Communism and Red Terror. the life of a Red Army soldier was worth nothing, minority or Russian, it doesn't matter so it is a really moot argument that the Soviets made no difference between nationalities in the Army. all Red Army soldiers were dressed equally and no national differences were allowed to be worn. Nazi Germany also separated Czechoslovakia and made Slovakia idnependent, same with Yugoslavia and Croatia. after the end of the Red rule, those coutnries again opted to democratically make themselves independent, so it is obvious that Hitler not only understood the national feelings of minorities but also used them to his advantage. the Communist authorities of course played on the feelings of their supressed people and they welcomed their enthusiasm with a laugh, they would be the cannon-fodder to support their own regime. so, using Slovakia and Croatia as examples, there is no evidence to support the idea that Hitler wanted to take away the lands and lifes of the Soviet minorities, on the contrary, he encouraged those and many fought willingly in his Army.

This... is very interesting. You are German yes? This has sparked my interest, do you have any sources for this information? I don't care about majority views and yes I admit it does seem to be rather one-sided when it comes to Nazi Germany these days as well as pro-America in whom I sense something rather fishy.

When it comes to history - accuracy is important. If you can show me the sources of this information it's very much appreciated.

However, do note that many of these Eastern European nations who once upheld the Nazi Germans invading Russia were first seen as liberators only to find out they were nothing more then an occupying force.

- Czarist Imperial Russia was a hundredfold more liberal towards their minorities than Soviet Russia could ever hope for. almost every minority enjoyed a privileged status in their society, Germans (many army commanders and other officials, free peasants, exempted from military service), Cossacks (border guards, free peasants etc), Fins, even Poles (free peasants) and also some Caucasian people. of course minorities could never get high offices, this is because it was a monarchy, not because it was less liberal than Soviets. though even the Romanov line was heavily Germanized and was technically already a German dynasty, the full form is Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp, so even foreign nobles could become rulers of Russia, like Danish etc.

Not to the Kalmyks at least - even though they may be a minority what the Tsarist Russians did there should not be forgotten.

well this is factually incorrect. Ukraine for most part is Slavic, the only Slav people that heavily mixed with Turkic people are the Cossacks, and they fought together with Crimean tatars against Polish supression. anyways, the crimea is nowadays predominantely Russian, Crimean tatars were deportet durign SOVIET rule (as opposed to Czarist Russia). also Tokhtamysh LOST against the Muscovites at Kulikovo Polye. the only true sucessor fot he Golden Khanate is Idel-Ural, Russia/Muscovy NEVER, it was them who destroyed it.

Ukraine is still Ukrainian, deportations exists sure. But many of our people still reside there and it's a fact. They even still look like us in some cases and that's a fact. They even had a Buryat prime minister and that's also a fact.

Tokhtamysh did not lose against the Muscovites. His rival of the Blue Khanate, Mamai was the one who lost against the Muscovites in 1380 in Kulikovo. He united the Blue and White divisions (After Mamai's defeat) and formed the Golden Khanate then launched a campaign from 1382 onwards and WON against the Muscovites successfully punishing the Muscovians. His mistake, and the downfall of the Golden Khanate was betraying Timur and that's a fact.

EDIT: Completed post

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Of course Tsarist Russia wasn't %100 percent innocent. First of all, it invaded and occupided Ural-Altaic lands. This is something. But unlike USSR, they did not interfere on local cultures on great extent (though there were attempts of spreading Christianity, but they were not succesful). One example is that all the literate people among the Turkic peoples could understand the newspaper published by Ismail of Gaspyra.

[Verinen Paroni]

Temujin explained very well, but I correct something:

before Germany even became a Facist state.

Germany was not ever Fascist. I have study alot of political ideologies and Fascism and National Socialism have alot of differences. Though NS was influenced by Fascism. (Offtopic just...)

invaded Finland and the Baltic states and surpressed their national identity.

Tried to invade Finland.

They got less than 20% from our official territory after Winter War and WWII.

- Czarist Imperial Russia was a hundredfold more liberal towards their minorities than Soviet Russia could ever hope for. almost every minority enjoyed a privileged status in their society, Germans (many army commanders and other officials, free peasants, exempted from military service), Cossacks (border guards, free peasants etc), Fins, even Poles (free peasants) and also some Caucasian people. of course minorities could never get high offices, this is because it was a monarchy, not because it was less liberal than Soviets.

Actually Finland was not part of Czarist Russia before Nikolai II. Our senate was in Helsinki and there lived also General Governor, but only Russian who had real power here was Czar himself. In that time we were more independent than now and actually even some Czars like Nikolai I and Alexandr II considered Finland to own independent country what they ruled also.

Good post Temujin.

[Subu'atai]

Someone please tell me about Idel-Ural!!!!

Please?

[Temüjin]

please check again the ww2 thread, i think Bawirsaq posted pictures of those soldiers and gave some comments. i've also posted a lot of pictures of Steppe people in ww2 in the big picture thread in the military history forum.
as for Idel-Ural, i think the Baron can tell you most about it.
first major victims of Soviets were Cossacks, this is because they were a major stronghold of Whites in the Russian Civil War, there were almost no Cossacks supporting the Reds except for some individuals even though Soviets later claimed particularly towards outsiders that there were quite a lot Cossacks supporting the Reds. as for Germans, i don't know why so many Germans ended up in Gulags, as said, the Volga German SSR was only abolished in 1941 and i never heard of major ressistance against Reds by Germans, maybe those were mostly Baltic Germans, i don't know.


yeah Baron, you are of course correct, technically and effectively National Socialism was not Facism, it was just allied to other Facist countries like Italy and Spain.

[Verinen Paroni]

about Idel-Ural State: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idel-Ural_State

Quite right.

And to Temujin about offtopic: Paolo Di Canio said once "I am Fascist, but I am not racist". It is well explained about some differences between Fascism and NS.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

The followers of MHP in Turkey, the Ülkücü, can also be considered a branch of Fascism, because they are not racist (thoughthere are racists among them) and their nationalism is based on land and culture rather than race. That's why they (not all) consider non-Turkics living in Turkey as their "brothers". They also have a lot of non-Turkic supporters, or supporters of mixed origins. Funny thing is that even the principals of Ülkücüs, the Dokuz Işık (Nine Lights) of Alparslan Türkeş, was heavily influenced by Italian fascist ideologists ;D

[sarmat]

Jun 12, 2008 0:16:59 GMT 3 Temüjin said:

i cannot agree here. you fell victim of the common self-portrayal of the USSr, but the truth looks more ugly:

You may fell victim of the anti-Soviet hysteria as well. Very hard to find a balance here

Jun 12, 2008 0:16:59 GMT 3 Temüjin said:

- it was the Soviets who first started to kill people based on ethnicity before Germany even became a Facist state. most early victims of Gulags were Cossacks & Germans. Soviets never granted a Cossack SSR and the German SSR was disbanded and the population forcibly removed to Asia during ww2.

Cossacks are Russians. Most of them actually are Russian nationalists which always were behind Tsarism. You know that very well. Soviet didn't put Germans to Gulags just because they were Germans untill WWII, more over you forget that the biggest victims of the Soviet system are Russian themselves. Besides, no Lenin, nor Stalin were proper Russians

Jun 12, 2008 0:16:59 GMT 3 Temüjin said:

- Soviets portray themselves as victims of Nazis, yet it was the Soviets who willingly allied themselves to the Nazis and helped them destroy Poland, killed Polish officers at Katyn, invaded Finland and the Baltic states and surpressed their national identity. you already mentioned what they did to the Kalmyks but they were not the only ones.

Yes, they are victims of Nazism. Nazists killed tens of millions of civilians on the occupied territories and burned simple peasants alive in their huts, those who actually suffered the most from the Communist oppression. Barbaric, idiotic behavoir especially taking into account that many Soviet citizens expected somekind of "liberation" from Germany. What Germany brought was worse than the most terrible nightmare. Idiotic, senseless, meaningless killing of innosent people regardless of their ethnicity all were killed as long as any suspicious behavoir was noticed by the Nazi occupants
Soviet system was terrible, Nazist system was ten thousands times more terrible.
Stalin killed 30 thousands Polish POWs - disgusting meaningless crimes. But why don't you want to ask how many MILLIONS Poles including women and children Nazist killed in Poland?

Jun 12, 2008 0:16:59 GMT 3 Temüjin said:

- Turkic soldiers in ww2. this is maybe hard to accept but those are facts: Nazi Germany had volunteers from almost all countries of europe, every legion was allowed to use their national insignia and identification.

Yeah, there were also several hundred thousands Jews in Wermacht. So what, Red Army also had some communist German, Spanish, Italian freaks etc. and they were "volunteers" Have you also heard about Ernst Tellman, fighting for the communist cause in the heart of Germany?

Jun 12, 2008 0:16:59 GMT 3 Temüjin said:

people are always fast to mention that Nazis want to kill everyone who is not nordic-"aryan",

And this it true

Jun 12, 2008 0:16:59 GMT 3 Temüjin said:

the reality was obviously much less extreme, foreign volutneers made up at least 1/3 of the Waffen SS, even many ex-Soviet citizens, minority or Rus joined the ranks of Germany to fight against Communism and Red Terror. the life of a Red Army soldier was worth nothing, minority or Russian, it doesn't matter so it is a really moot argument that the Soviets made no difference between nationalities in the Army. all Red Army soldiers were dressed equally and no national differences were allowed to be worn.

Soviet army also included Polish, Slovak etc. ethnic units. Red terror is much less "terrible" than the Nazist terror where people put in the fabric of death just because they do not fit in some racial standards. Stalin sent people to Siberia. Hitler sent people to Oswentzim.

Jun 12, 2008 0:16:59 GMT 3 Temüjin said:

Nazi Germany also separated Czechoslovakia and made Slovakia idnependent, same with Yugoslavia and Croatia. after the end of the Red rule, those coutnries again opted to democratically make themselves independent, so it is obvious that Hitler not only understood the national feelings of minorities but also used them to his advantage.

This is simply funny. Hitler brough a democracy to Croatia and Slovakia ;D Thank you great furher!

Jun 12, 2008 0:16:59 GMT 3 Temüjin said:

the Communist authorities of course played on the feelings of their supressed people and they welcomed their enthusiasm with a laugh, they would be the cannon-fodder to support their own regime. so, using Slovakia and Croatia as examples, there is no evidence to support the idea that Hitler wanted to take away the lands and lifes of the Soviet minorities, on the contrary, he encouraged those and many fought willingly in his Army.

And Hitler didn't do it? He didn't play with the feelings? Nazist killed and treated all Soviet POWs as animals regardless their ethnicity.

Yes some freaks did fought in the Nazist army. But the great majority fought against Nazist evil and they will proud of this until their death. Ask any Chechen, Tatar, Uzbek etc. veterans of WWII they love their people despise the Soviet system but are proud that they defeated Nazism.

Jun 12, 2008 0:16:59 GMT 3 Temüjin said:

- Czarist Imperial Russia was a hundredfold more liberal towards their minorities than Soviet Russia could ever hope for. almost every minority enjoyed a privileged status in their society, Germans (many army commanders and other officials, free peasants, exempted from military service), Cossacks (border guards, free peasants etc), Fins, even Poles (free peasants) and also some Caucasian people. of course minorities could never get high offices, this is because it was a monarchy, not because it was less liberal than Soviets. though even the Romanov line was heavily Germanized and was technically already a German dynasty, the full form is Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp, so even foreign nobles could become rulers of Russia, like Danish etc.

This is true, but it doesn't mean that the Nazi system is anyhow better than the Soviet system.