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Post by sarmat on Jun 20, 2008 11:53:46 GMT 3
Would you please stop using term Uralic, when you talk about soviets or russians! Original russians (rus-vikings) were from Scandinavia. They assimiliated many nations to them, also many Uralic nations. I am an Uralic and I am not russian! I am sorry for using harsh language, but I feel very disturbing when someone (like soviets) who murdered alot of Uralics, are now called Uralics... Rus are not original Russians. Rus and Russians are different names you know... Just the root of the word Russian is "Rus" but Russians and Rus are different people. But perhaps it will be a discovery for you. but there is a quite credible IMO theory that Russians are just Slavicized Finns. Like French are Romanized Celts. And there are proofs for that. Several famous Russian historians support this theory. It's the best way to insult Russians by the Ukranian ultra-nationalists BTW, they say you are inferior culturally assimilated Finns, while we are great Slavic Aryans and the same sh...
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Post by Nomad (Daz) on Jun 20, 2008 13:02:55 GMT 3
Agree with you Rus and Russia is two different things.
Soviet Union was not Russian but Moscows.
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Post by Temüjin on Jun 20, 2008 23:26:43 GMT 3
Cossacks are Russians. Most of them actually are Russian nationalists which always were behind Tsarism. You know that very well. Soviet didn't put Germans to Gulags just because they were Germans untill WWII, more over you forget that the biggest victims of the Soviet system are Russian themselves. Besides, no Lenin, nor Stalin were proper Russians Cossacks are not Russians. zaporozhians/Kuban Cossakcs were never Russians ever, it is what they think because they are now part of Russia but ethnically they were closest to Urkainians and Terek Cossacks (descendants of Russians). Terek Cossacks thesmelves likewise had mroe in common with Ukrianian Kuban Cossacks than Russians. it is completly unimportant what they decend from, mdoern Americans are not English and Cossacks are not Russians, simpyl because they fled their lands to become free, thats not what Russians would do. they are only Russians NOW because Russia dominates them. Russians weren't victims of Soviets either, thats what Rusisan nationalistc laims and always say those evil Soviet leaders were not Russians but everyoen else was! recently revealed documents show that most passports collected by the Communist authority by Gulag prisoners belogned to Germans and Cossacks. there was a documentary about this and they showed examples of passports and they were all Germans or Cossacks. so? that doesn't mean Soviets were better, Germans treated their own population and most western occupied people well unless they were Jews or opposed the Nazis. Soviets killed everyone they liked, fellow countrymen or from occupied territories. Soviets removed whoel populations from their homelands, Hitler created new countries that still exist today because they wanted to be free. and those were Slavic (Slovakia & Croatia). Nazis killed only Commies and Jews but Communists killed everyoen randomly that they didn't liked.
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Post by Verinen Paroni on Jun 20, 2008 23:59:28 GMT 3
Communist system was much worse than NS system.
In that time, every non-communist Finn would prefer Hitler much more than Stalin.
That is a fact.
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Post by sarmat on Jun 21, 2008 1:09:31 GMT 3
Cossacks are not Russians. zaporozhians/Kuban Cossakcs were never Russians ever, it is what they think because they are now part of Russia but ethnically they were closest to Urkainians and Terek Cossacks (descendants of Russians). Terek Cossacks thesmelves likewise had mroe in common with Ukrianian Kuban Cossacks than Russians. it is completly unimportant what they decend from, Zaporozhian Cossacks don't exist anymore. Yes, you may argue that Kuban Cossacks are not Russians (although most of them consider themselves to be Russians). But there are many other Cossacks like Don and many other Hosts which don't have any connection to Ukraine whatsoever. You say it's complitely unimortant what they say. What if I say, it's complitely unitmportant that you consider yourself German, you are a Shwab or a Bavarian or whatever, you're just the victim of German propaganda. Or many Germans which have Slavic last names are not Germans and it doesn't matter what they say because they are Czechs or Poles since they originate from those and it doesn't matter at all what they think about themselves - this is what you're saying. mdoern Americans are not English and Cossacks are not Russians, simpyl because they fled their lands to become free, thats not what Russians would do. they are only Russians NOW because Russia dominates them. This is your very specific and unorthodox opinion. Likewise I say you're not German, you just German because Germany dominates your native Bavarian land, Russians weren't victims of Soviets either, thats what Rusisan nationalistc laims and always say those evil Soviet leaders were not Russians but everyoen else was! recently revealed documents show that most passports collected by the Communist authority by Gulag prisoners belogned to Germans and Cossacks. there was a documentary about this and they showed examples of passports and they were all Germans or Cossacks. Which documents show that? Please give me a reference to thes e documents. Do you know actually why the name Gulag is so famous in the West? It comes from the book of the Russian writes Solzhenitsin "Gulag Archipelago." Take sometime to read this book. Of course Gulag was full of every kind of people, but Russians were an absolute majority there. so? that doesn't mean Soviets were better, Germans treated their own population and most western occupied people well unless they were Jews or opposed the Nazis. Soviets killed everyone they liked, fellow countrymen or from occupied territories. False. Nazist killed far more people on the occupied territories than the Soviets. And they killed French, Dutch, Belgians, Italians etc. although in less numbers than Eastern Europeans but it doesn't excuse them. Soviets never killed Hungarian, Romanian and German civil population in millions as Germans did in Poland or Belarus (every 4th person in Belarus was killed BTW by Nazist during the occupation). Nazists were so idiotic that even Ukrainian nationalists who hated Soviets in the end of the war turned their weapons against Germans because what they created in Ukraine was worse than the nightmare. Soviets removed whoel populations from their homelands, Hitler created new countries that still exist today because they wanted to be free. and those were Slavic (Slovakia & Croatia). Nazis killed only Commies and Jews but Communists killed everyoen randomly that they didn't liked. Compare the numbers of the people forcefully removed by the Soviets with the numbers killed by Nazists those numbers are insignificant, the numbers of foreign volunteers and allies outnumber everything the Soviets had tenfold. the Red foreign supporters of the Soviet Union wre all blind Red fanatics. Your biased opinion. How would you call a Dutch who goes and fights in the German army while his countrymen are dying fighting the same army in their own land? What is the proper name for this volunteer: "traitor," "collaraboratianist," "brain washed Nazi" in other words simply a freak who was hated by his countrymen until his death. Besides, what bad Russians did to him that he goes to the middle of Russia to fight them? Such volunteer is a Nazi propaganda brainwashed freak. Of course some Nazi allies like Finns have just cause for the war with the Soviets. But this doesn't apply to the majority of your volunteers. it is more humane to kill people instantly instead of lettign them suffer for years. Yeah, this is exactly what Nazist thought let's bring the "ultimate solution" and save the humankind in the humane gas chamber. no its not true, Nordic countries like Denmark, Norway and the benelux countries were all invaded and supressed by Nazis while Germany allied with mediterranean countries like Spain, Italy and almost every Balkan country. this is historical reality and fact, you can't deny the factuality of this. Balkan countries hadn't much choice. In the beginning of the war they were Nazi allies in the end they were Soviet allies. If the choice was there own they would never send their troops to fight in Russia. Hitler demanded them to do so. Likewise in the end Stalin demanded them to fight Germany and they did that. Also during all the war there were a lot of resistant fighters in all these countries who fought against Nazi puppets authorities there. thats not true, it dependend on individual commanders who decided what to do with PoWs 90% of the Soviet POWs died in German capitivity this the fact and it means that it was a general policy to mistreat them those were brainwashed? it was vice versa. how do you explain that your beloved white russian cossack leaders like Shkuro actively supported the integration of Cossacks to the Wehrmacht? of course they suddenly became "freaks" after they lost to the Reds or what? There are always exceptions which I can understand. Like Shkuro, but he was a minority. Also you should know that some prominent white Russian leaders were wise enough to reject all the Nazi offers to cooperate like Denikin. But what exactly the Cossacks of Shkuro did, I don't really understand how they added the White Russian cause by killing Yugoslavian and Italian partisans. Unfortunately, they just became the pawns of the Nazists. its dissapointign for me to see that you as a Cossack don't think of yourself as Cossack but Russian, but everyone is entitled to its own opinion. but anyways, the historical facts are against you, irregardless of your personal opinion. It's dissapointing for you my friend. But please tell me why you in Germany should decide who are Cossacks or the descendants of the Cossacks or whatever should think about themselves? Do you have more authority to decide for them? Historical facts again are that Cossacks were the backbone of the Russian imperialism and Nationalism for centuries and this is against you, but not me. i care little for the opinion of those modern Russians who call themselves as Cossacks. Cossacks are those who fought and lost in the Russian Civil War, this was pretty much the end of the Cossacks. any true Cossack died or fled the coutnry, those who remained are traitors, or "manqurt" as they say in Turkish. there are no more Cossacks today. "Yeah and you're a Bavarian mankurt, brainwashed by Prussian nationalism; and I don't care of whay you think yourself"- just to turn your logic against you. I live in the US know and I met a lot of descendants of the Cossacks here who fled after the Civil war. Most of them were more Russian than any modern average Russian now. as i said above, unless you were Jew or Communist (or otherwise anti-nazist), national socialism was tenfold better than the Soviet Union. Nazis sucesfully improved the living standard and wellfare of its own loyal people and this happened already before the war, actually the war changed this for worse, no common people profited from the exploits of the conquest. Soviets could say the same things. Unless you are a "anti-Soviet" you could enjoy vast benefits of the Soviet system, free education, guaranteed salary and work and security provided by the State. Not much difference with the Nazi way of excuse themselves.
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Post by sarmat on Jun 21, 2008 1:14:59 GMT 3
Communist system was much worse than NS system. In that time, every non-communist Finn would prefer Hitler much more than Stalin. That is a fact. It's an understandable and natural conclusion. Because Stalin invaded Finland and tried to conquer it while Hitler didn't attempt to do such things. Finns were looking for allies and there couldn't be much help from England or France, Germany was the only option doesn't matter that Hitler was there.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 21, 2008 1:32:54 GMT 3
I am very sure our beloved Temüjin Yabghu is not brainwashed by Prussian nationalism. And who told you that Bavarians aren't German?
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Post by sarmat on Jun 21, 2008 2:13:14 GMT 3
I don't think Bavarians aren't Germans. But I apply Temujin's logic to his own case. Cossacks are generally believed to be a subethnic group of Russians. Temujin thinks Cossacks are a separate ethnicity. The descendants of the Cossacks now think themselves to be Russians. Temujin says he doesn't care what they think, because he knows that they are not Russians. So, why can't I say, that I don't care that Bavarians think themselves to be Germans, because I know that they are just Bavarians. Especially since they were an independent nation and were "subdued" by Prussia only in the end of the 19th century. To say that Bavarians are not Germans are totally the same with saying that Cossacks are not Russians.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 21, 2008 2:49:50 GMT 3
But it is a very well known fact the Cossacks had elements from Russians, Ukrainians, Turks-Tatars and even some Caucasians.
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Post by sarmat on Jun 21, 2008 6:50:04 GMT 3
Yes, this is very well known fact. But does it make Cossacks a separate ethnicity? Their culture is different from the rest of Russians but this fact by itself doesn't make them complitely separate group of people. It makes them a subethnic group. Aren't there Anatolian Turkmen in the Republic of Turkey? And they are Turks. But one if he wants can separate them and say they are a special nation and not Turkish.
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Post by Temüjin on Jun 21, 2008 20:09:23 GMT 3
Yes, this is very well known fact. But does it make Cossacks a separate ethnicity? yes, because: [/u] but this fact by itself doesn't make them complitely separate group of people. [/quote] yes it does. what do you think is the major difference between Serbs, Croats and Bosnians? you need to separate nationailty and ethnicity. for example Kurds in Turkey have Turkish nationality and Kurds in iran have iranian nationality. do you think such differences didn't existed during Yugoslav rule? Cossacks are only Russians because they are part of Russia now, it doesn't mean they have always been Russians (by nationality). also you need to know the difference between Turk and Turkic.
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Post by Temüjin on Jun 21, 2008 20:53:21 GMT 3
What if I say, it's complitely unitmportant that you consider yourself German, you are a Shwab or a Bavarian or whatever, you're just the victim of German propaganda. Or many Germans which have Slavic last names are not Germans and it doesn't matter what they say because they are Czechs or Poles since they originate from those and it doesn't matter at all what they think about themselves - this is what you're saying. but why? this is totally my opinion and historical fact. unlike many other countries in europe Germany was never a nation state of a single dominating tribe but a confederation of many equal tribes, like Swabians, bavarians, Saxons, Franks, Thuringinans, Frisians...this also includes the Germanified western slavs who are realted to Czechs & Poles but they are not the same. this is also what i already wrote at AE and maybe even here in some threads. again, don't confuse nationality/ethnicity. ;D i'm not bavarian at all, check my location... it was a TV documentary, they showed the passports stored in the basement of some NKVD building or whatever, most passports read 'Cossack' and 'German' at ethnicity. Cossack is botha military term and an ethnical term, similar to Gurkha. killed more compared to what? because Nazis conquered much more foreign territory than Soviets. Soviets never had the chance to kill that many Germans because they occupied only Prussia and most Germans fled before the Soviets reached their lands. there was no German nightmare in the Ukraine, the Holdomor caused by Stalin was much worse than what Germans did, Ukrainians knew how to defend demselves like the UPA killed General Vatutin. and most fo those Belarussians and Ukrianians killed were in fact Jews, not ethnic Ukrainians. many of those deported died along the way or at their destination, there is no difference. those Dutch etc who fought for Nazies did that also because they wanted to fight for people of the same blood, they didn't agreed with the policy of their former native government. it is still a fact that manyfold more Dutch etc fought for Nazies than Reds. of course the majority was against both, but we're only comparing Communism vs national Socialism. only Jews and gypsies were subject to wholesale extermination. other non-Nordic races were supposed to become slaves but it was unrealistic anyways yes the Balkan countries had a choice, they had the choice to ally with either Germany or Soviet Union and guess what they did. the Soviet occupation of bessarabia did much to help Romanians decide... Balkan countries had another choice, after the end of the East Bloc, now free countries like Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia ceased to exist but instead became national states again like in ww2. 90% is not an accurate numbers. and guess what, those who were liberated by the Red Army were sent to Gulags for treason, this is how the Commies treats the cannonfodder that went to war to save their glorious Soviet regime that was so good to them and saved them from evil Nazis.... ;D of course those lucky enough to not get captured or even receive some funky medal are dumb enough not to realise this fate of their comrades... rewards by the Soviets can differ so much even though both were same... again, fact is, Germany never sent Generals to Gulags or executing them wholesale, and German PoWs were never treated bad by their own government, this is in total contrast to what the Soviets did. Shkuro was no exception there were other Cossack generals too like Krasnov and Naumenko but he was the most famous of those, there was also the Russian occupation corps in Yugoslavia. there were many more people of the Sovciet Union who tought it was better to fight for Nazis than to live in hell for the rest of their lives. and they weren't forced to do so either, colonel Kononov and his Cossack regiment changed sides on their own free will without beign caputred. i'm not Germany but i have the facts in my hands. a true Cossack would enver considder hismelf subject of anyone, thats why they fled to the Steppe in the first place. the Cossacks of Imperial Russia had a lot of autonomy and through their different CULTURE, they had a different miltary system (Steppe warfare) and therefore served the Czar in a different function than the other people of Imperial Russia. the name of their ethnicity became the name of a military formation, as i already wrote above. also they served the Czar and not the nation, because the Czar later on became the nominal Ataman of all Cossacks, they were therefore not nationalists but simply supporters of the Romanov Monarchy and the czarist family, simply as that. in fact after the abdication of the Czar they wanted to create a free Cossack state with their own Atamans as rulers, i already mentioned the Don-Kuban Union. Don Cossacks of the Civil War used their own yellow-blue-red tricolore and not the white-red-blue of the Russians. as i already wrote above and many times before, i'm neither bavarian nor brainwashed by Prussian nationalism, in fact i totally dislike both bavarians and Prussians and i do knot aknowledge Berlin as legitimate capital of Germany. thats just proove that true Cossacks ceased to exist. those are good jokes, it is well known that Soviet education was false, for example that Catherien the Great sold Alaska to the USA or that Stalin invented the plane and other funny claims. guaranteed salary is fine, as logn as you get enough to make a living, which was NOT the case in the USSR, on the same point, no one was allowed to becoem rich etiher... and what "security by the state" are you talkign about? the KGB?
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Post by sarmat on Jun 21, 2008 22:55:51 GMT 3
Temujin, your statements are so biased and filled with ignorance.
I for example received the Soviet education and I never read in the Soviet history books that Catherine sold Alaska, it's nonsense.
USSR was also very different during different stages of its history and you can't judge the whole Soviet histoy based only on the bloody Stalin rule period.
Why don't you believe me? I am not a big fun of the Soviet system in general but what you wrote is just a big joke.
Soviet science and education produced many great scienists including the history field BTW like Gumilev. Of course it was filled with the class strugle BS but it never put the false facts in the books like you said. It's just nonsense. I know for some reasons a lot of people think that Catherine sold Alaska, but never it was written in the books.
Soviets BTW almost complitely liquidated illiteracy in the USSR by the 1950th. In the Russian Empire BTW the illiteracy was 80%. That is one of the advantages of the Soviet rule and u can't deny that fact.
Excuse me for calling your Bavarian, but the point is not whether you are a Bavarian or not, but how u distinguish the ethnicity and sub ethnicity. The features which in your view make Cossacks a separate people from Russians totally are applicable to the German ethnic group.
Now, about the stuff that Russians were not majority in Gulag, it's complite BS and saying that you saw it in the documentary says nothing, unless you can give me documented source which says that. Documentaries can show very often the stuff which in fact is false.
Concerning the Nazi crimes in Ukraine there is enough information and facts. One fact that UPA, an extremely anit-Soviet and anti-Russian organizatrion turned against the Germans says a lot. However, if you want, I'll give you an extensive list of books and documents, produced BTW by the most Nationalistic Ukranians about the Nazi crimes in Ukraine. Germans treated Ukrainians nothing more than the slave labor, and Hitler once said that the whole population of Ukraine is not worth a life of the lowest German worker.
It's also very weird that you can glorify Hitler and the Nazi regime, which brought to Germany only death, sufferings and separation, which also are obvious facts. While the Soviet brought the ideological and economic submission to the Eastern Europeans (which undoubtelly was very bad) they never threatened them with the complete assimilation and extermination which were Germans planning and doing in Poland, Czechia and the occupied territories of the USSR.
You should now very well that Hitler hated the Slavs, may be a little less than Jews, but they still were regarded as inferior race and were aimed for the exterimination and enslavery. Soviets never had such plans and ideas. The Soviet system especially under Stalin undoubtely proved to be very brutal and inhumane, but the Nazi system was just much more terrible.
And that's why the population in the USSR fought against Nazists despite that many people in fact hated the Soviet authorities. But the human nature is simple which is one always elects the lesser evil out of the two. That's it.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 22, 2008 1:02:01 GMT 3
Yes, the Soviets improved literacy, but only after destroying the entire learned class like they did in Qazaqstan and Uzbekistan during the 1930s, and than imposing their own propaganda on their subject peoples.
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Post by sarmat on Jun 22, 2008 2:52:55 GMT 3
It's a fact and I don't deny that. I'm not saying that the Soviets were so good. What I'm saying is that you can't say that they were "worse than Nazist"
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