Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 5, 2004 12:37:54 GMT 3
(Originially posted by me at November 13, 2004)
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When did the Mongol Empire established by Chinggis Khaan in 1206 end? Which year exactly? I read in the AE forum that the line of Yuan Mongol rulers continued even after the effective fall of the Yuan Dynasty and that the Mongol Empire ended when the last Yuan ruler in Mongolia submitted to the Qing Dynasty in the 18th century. How true is this? Same goes for the Chaghadai Khanate.
What are the exact dates of the effective ends of Mongol khanates such as the Yuan Dynasty of the Far East, Chaghatai Khanate of Turkestan, Ilkhanate of Iran and the Qïpchaq Khanate (so-called "Golden Horde") of the Western Steppes?
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(Originially posted by Temujin at November 13, 2004)
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yeah, that's a quite dificult question, the problem is: was Kubilai legitimate or not? if not, then the empre ends witht he fragmentation, and that's also the point where I'd draw the line...for the different sucessor states it's more difficult, only for the il-Qanate there is a definite beginning and end: 1261-1338
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(Originially posted by me at November 14, 2004)
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Hmm, similarly there is the problem of the "Golden Horde"s succesors - should we count the Khanates of Crimea, Astrakhan and Kazan as a part of "Golden Horde" history or should we count them as separate states? If we count them as a part of the Golden Horde, than the House of Jochi ended in 1772 (IIRC).
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(Originially posted by Temujin at November 14, 2004)
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the Golden Horde is a problem on it's own, first of all the Golden Horde started with Tokhtamish, he unified te Blue and the White Horde. and the Crimean Qanate is not ruled yb the house of Jochi but the house of Giray. they conquered the remaisn of the Golden Horde.
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(Originially posted by me at November 14, 2004)
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Hmm, by "Golden Horde", I ment the Jochi Ulus (Qïpchaq Khanate).
Ok, but are the House of Giray and the House of Jochi related (by marriage)?
And what about the Khanate of Khaidu? When did it end?
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(Originially posted by Temujin at November 14, 2004)
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Jochis had four sons: Batü, Berke, Orda and Shiban. Batü and after him Berke were rulers of the Blue Horde in the west (european Steppe), orda was Qan of the white horde that is roughly equal to todays kazakhstan. soem also claim that Shiban got a part of the cake, namely the northern part that eventually became the Qanate of Sibir conquered by the famous Cossack Yermak. it would also therefore enver have been part of the Golde Horde but nevertheless ruled by the house of Jochi...
I don't know, I thought maybe you would know...
right after his death power collapsed, the territory went back to the Chagatai Qanate. I also found a book once when researching about his Qanat, it's quite expensive though... www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0700706313/qid=1100454926/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9370163-0391313?v=glance&s=books
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(Originially posted by me at November 14, 2004)
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Hmm, ok thanks.
But I thought the Blue-White Horde division appeared in the late 14th century
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(Originially posted by Chono at November 14, 2004)
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Kubilai was definitely illegitimate. So Chinggis Khaan's empire ended with Kubilai's ascention. So around 1260.
When Togontemur was kicked out of China he claimed a "northern Yuan" state, which was nothing but a ghostly title. It ended effectively when the khan of Chahar, Ligden died. He was the only legitimate claimer of northern Yuan. His son had to marry into Qing's Aisingoro family and supposedly gave them a jade seal which was a symbol of Yuan or something. So that'd be the end of northern Yuan at around 1630s.
The Girei family is I think supposed to have it's lineage to Jochi, but their name suggests they could've had something to do with khereits, maybe Van khan's descendants?
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When did the Mongol Empire established by Chinggis Khaan in 1206 end? Which year exactly? I read in the AE forum that the line of Yuan Mongol rulers continued even after the effective fall of the Yuan Dynasty and that the Mongol Empire ended when the last Yuan ruler in Mongolia submitted to the Qing Dynasty in the 18th century. How true is this? Same goes for the Chaghadai Khanate.
What are the exact dates of the effective ends of Mongol khanates such as the Yuan Dynasty of the Far East, Chaghatai Khanate of Turkestan, Ilkhanate of Iran and the Qïpchaq Khanate (so-called "Golden Horde") of the Western Steppes?
----------------
(Originially posted by Temujin at November 13, 2004)
----
yeah, that's a quite dificult question, the problem is: was Kubilai legitimate or not? if not, then the empre ends witht he fragmentation, and that's also the point where I'd draw the line...for the different sucessor states it's more difficult, only for the il-Qanate there is a definite beginning and end: 1261-1338
----------------
(Originially posted by me at November 14, 2004)
----
Hmm, similarly there is the problem of the "Golden Horde"s succesors - should we count the Khanates of Crimea, Astrakhan and Kazan as a part of "Golden Horde" history or should we count them as separate states? If we count them as a part of the Golden Horde, than the House of Jochi ended in 1772 (IIRC).
----------------
(Originially posted by Temujin at November 14, 2004)
----
the Golden Horde is a problem on it's own, first of all the Golden Horde started with Tokhtamish, he unified te Blue and the White Horde. and the Crimean Qanate is not ruled yb the house of Jochi but the house of Giray. they conquered the remaisn of the Golden Horde.
----------------
(Originially posted by me at November 14, 2004)
----
the Golden Horde is a problem on it's own, first of all the Golden Horde started with Tokhtamish, he unified te Blue and the White Horde.
Hmm, by "Golden Horde", I ment the Jochi Ulus (Qïpchaq Khanate).
and the Crimean Qanate is not ruled by the house of Jochi but the house of Giray.
Ok, but are the House of Giray and the House of Jochi related (by marriage)?
And what about the Khanate of Khaidu? When did it end?
----------------
(Originially posted by Temujin at November 14, 2004)
----
Hmm, by "Golden Horde", I ment the Jochi Ulus (Qïpchaq Khanate).
Jochis had four sons: Batü, Berke, Orda and Shiban. Batü and after him Berke were rulers of the Blue Horde in the west (european Steppe), orda was Qan of the white horde that is roughly equal to todays kazakhstan. soem also claim that Shiban got a part of the cake, namely the northern part that eventually became the Qanate of Sibir conquered by the famous Cossack Yermak. it would also therefore enver have been part of the Golde Horde but nevertheless ruled by the house of Jochi...
Ok, but are the House of Giray and the House of Jochi related (by marriage)?
I don't know, I thought maybe you would know...
And what about the Khanate of Khaidu? When did it end?
right after his death power collapsed, the territory went back to the Chagatai Qanate. I also found a book once when researching about his Qanat, it's quite expensive though... www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0700706313/qid=1100454926/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9370163-0391313?v=glance&s=books
----------------
(Originially posted by me at November 14, 2004)
----
Hmm, ok thanks.
But I thought the Blue-White Horde division appeared in the late 14th century
----------------
(Originially posted by Chono at November 14, 2004)
----
Kubilai was definitely illegitimate. So Chinggis Khaan's empire ended with Kubilai's ascention. So around 1260.
When Togontemur was kicked out of China he claimed a "northern Yuan" state, which was nothing but a ghostly title. It ended effectively when the khan of Chahar, Ligden died. He was the only legitimate claimer of northern Yuan. His son had to marry into Qing's Aisingoro family and supposedly gave them a jade seal which was a symbol of Yuan or something. So that'd be the end of northern Yuan at around 1630s.
The Girei family is I think supposed to have it's lineage to Jochi, but their name suggests they could've had something to do with khereits, maybe Van khan's descendants?