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Post by Ardavarz on Sept 18, 2011 1:10:09 GMT 3
I think that given those comparisons of the signs found in Mongolia, it is possible to suppose that some proto-Orkhonic script has been developed in Xiongnu era from simplified Chinese signs the same way as Phoenician alphabet was developed from Egyptian hieroglyphs. However the writings of the Western Steppe acoording to the I.L. Kyzlasov's research seem to have a different origin.
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 18, 2011 3:07:33 GMT 3
or maybe Proto-Turkic script was developed from how you would picture actual depictions of actions and the Proto-Turkic words that corresponds with those actions.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 18, 2011 11:13:59 GMT 3
I think that given those comparisons of the signs found in Mongolia, it is possible to suppose that some proto-Orkhonic script has been developed in Xiongnu era from simplified Chinese signs the same way as Phoenician alphabet was developed from Egyptian hieroglyphs. Perhaps. However the writings of the Western Steppe acoording to the I.L. Kyzlasov's research seem to have a different origin. Although I have read some of his works about the Orkhon-Yenisseian inscriptions, I didn't come across with his studies about the Western Steppe. What does he think about it? Oh and speaking of the Western Steppe, there is also this mysterious inscriptions of the Nagyszentmiklós treasure. Both Németh Gyula (Julius Nemeth) and Franz Altheim read those runic inscriptions with Old Turkic, and Németh proposed that the treasury belonged to the Pechenegs, but the readings of Németh and Altheim are very different from each other. The thing with those inscriptions is that the runic script used on the vessels of the treasure are unique, and I haven't seen any other inscriptions that use the same script. And only three letters of the Nagyszentmiklós runes match with Turkic runes.
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Post by Ardavarz on Sept 19, 2011 0:08:45 GMT 3
I have seen Kyzlasov's book about "Runic Writings of Eurasian Steppes" and have several pages xerocopied. He differentiates two big groups of Steppe writings - Asiatic (including Orkhon, Yeniseian and Talas alphabets) and Euro-Asiatic (including Don, Kuban alphabets and also the similar writings from Humara and Saltovo-Mayak). While the former is well known, the latter is not, and he doesn't propose any attempt of reading them, only makes catalogue of signs and notes their differences from the Eastern (Asiatic) group of alphabets (here too only several signs have matches). He also notes the alphabets from Bulgaria, Pannonia (Tisa) and Nagysentmiklos as another different type, but doesn't examine them in details. Here is an article of his about runic inscriptions from Volga Bulgaria: www.kroraina.com/runic/kyzlasov2.htmlHis conclusion is that: "the early medieval Turkic-speaking peoples from ancient times have been differentiated in two big culturally different groups. Each of them was historically related to one of two independent cultural seats in Central Asia".
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Modu Tanhu
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 19, 2011 3:39:54 GMT 3
What's strange is that the Etruscan alphabet has much runes in common with the Orkhon alphabet. These runes also sound the same. According to the Etruscan legend, the Roman Empire's founders, Romulus and Remus, twin brothers, were raised by a she-wolf. This sounds the same like the myth of the Turkic people since before Christ. The Etruscan language also has much words common in Turkic. I do not say Etruscan people are Turkic, it's just even impossible for me. But this all can't be a coincidence either. Can it be possible the Etruscan were an Indo-European tribe who spoke a Turkic language and that they are the decendants of the Saka? And IF Saka indeed were Turkic this would explain the fact why the Etruscan share the same alphabet system, a related language and myth! This means Etruscan were Turkic. But this sounds very strange. Maybe they were Turkic people who accepted the Indo-European culture, like the Saka? Or they are just Indo-European which were ruled by a Turkic elite and thus explaining the common alphabet system, common words in their language and common myth with the Turkic people??? Romulus and Remus: Etruscan runes:
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 19, 2011 3:50:39 GMT 3
Modu Tanhu: Here is a page I found which was interesting. users.cwnet.com/millenia/The%20Etruscan%20People%20and%20language.htmAnd here is a page in which Çingiz Karaþarlý tried reading some Etruscan Inscriptions in Turkic www.facebook.com/notes/prof-dr-kaz%C4%B1m-mir%C5%9Fan/etr%C3%BCsk-yazitlari-konu%C5%9Fma%C4%9Fa-ba%C5%9Fliyor/10150371639862040Example: "ii ulaθ iline inaθ" is something said by the women to the soldier. He thinks that this is Turkic and is "ÝÝ ULAÞ ÝLÝNE YINAT" (Reach your country safe and sound and get well) What I don't understand is Turkic EDGÜ became ÝYÝ. But ÝÝ can be seen in many other Asian languages unrelated to Turkic with the same meaning. umm.. Did Eskimos, Yupiks or Japans influence the Turks thus EDGU became ÝYÝ? Or this picture with a man driving a chariot. "ax1a iðuk aθe kufarke" is written and he thinks that the last two words are part of a Turkic sentence and is either "ATI KOVARKEN" meaning while (insert his name here) is making the horse run away. or (We were xxxx) while his horse was running. ??
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Modu Tanhu
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Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 19, 2011 4:36:00 GMT 3
Interesting. Even though I don't ike Kazim Mirsan because he comes up with absurd and strange theories, but that thext on facebook is interesting, I have to admit.
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 19, 2011 4:38:05 GMT 3
Interesting. Even though I don't ike Kazim Mirsan because he comes up with absurd and strange theory that thext on facebook is interesting, I have to admit. This research was not done by Kazým Mirþan AFAIK. It's just some place where I follow research like this and criticize them.
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Modu Tanhu
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 19, 2011 4:44:49 GMT 3
Oh I thought it was his because I saw his name. What does afaik mean???
And there are much mistakes in the text xD
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 19, 2011 21:08:28 GMT 3
Thank you.
They all must have been coincidences. And among the known Etruscan vocabulary list I have seen, there are only 2-3 words that are similar to Turkic, the rest are totally different.
Old Turkic Ädgü (Edgü) comes from the root word Äd (Ed) meaning "goods, belonging". In the 11th century, the word is recorded as Ädhgü by Mahmud of Kashghar. In Oghuz and Old Anatolian Turkish, the word became Äyü (Eyü) - the d/dh became y (as in the case of Batïraq -> Badhraq -> Bayrak, Adïġ -> Ayı or Adaq -> Ayak) and the -g- particle was dropped (a common feature of Oghuz dialects that differentiate them from other Turkic dialects and languages). In time, Äyü (Eyü) became Eyi in local Anatolian dialects and İyi in the İstanbul dialect - a process known in grammatics as vowel narrowing (ünlü daralması).
It's the abbraviation of As far as I know.
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Modu Tanhu
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Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 19, 2011 22:27:31 GMT 3
Well what I've told can indeed be dumb but I thought it could be possible because I don't believe in coincidences. I still believe though that Etruscans are Indo-European. From Wikipedia: Another study by geneticist Alberto Piazza of the University of Turin linked the Etruscans to Turkey. The team compared DNA sequences with those from men in modern Turkey, northern Italy, the Greek island of Lemnos, the Italian islands of Sicily and Sardinia and the southern Balkans. They found that the genetic sequences of the Tuscan men varied significantly from those of men in surrounding regions in Italy, and that the men from Murlo and Volterra were the most closely related to men from Turkey. In Murlo in particular, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey. This is VERY strange there has to be some explanation because this confuses me as it sounds impossible! BTW what do you think of my banner? I created it myself. P.S. I usually make mistakes when I because I am an impatient person and try to finish my text very fast, that's why I sometimes forget to write a word or make a fault in grammar while in fact what I want to write, in my head, is correct ;D.
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Post by hjernespiser on Sept 19, 2011 22:35:21 GMT 3
I just see A, B, C, D, E, F, I, J, K, M, N, O, S, T, U/V, phi, W, etc.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 19, 2011 23:08:41 GMT 3
You should see the proto-Etruscan alphabet.
Look at the runes in the reply where I posted a picture. There are some common runes with the same sound as in Orkhon.
But I know its impossible they were proto-Turkic, don't worry.
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Post by Ardavarz on Sept 20, 2011 1:03:52 GMT 3
About the origin of Etruscans there were two theories as early as Antiquity. One regarded them as autochtons of Italy, while the other (based on legend reported by Herodotus) as emmigrants from Asia Minor. According to the latter view Etruscans were related to the Lydians. But while Lydian language is fragmentary known from deciphered texts (just like Etruscan) and it seem to have been Indo-European, the topic of Etruscan language is not so sure. I have came across some studies trying to connect it with Caucasian rather than Indo-European family. I have read also about a more recent theory postulating an extinct language family - so-called Tyrrhenian (from Greek name of the Etruscans) in Eastern Mediterranean from which Etruscan language was the only remnant in historical times. The ancient Greek historians indeed have spoken about groups of Tyrrhenians (or Tyrsenians) living on the Aegean islands and there are found inscriptions (like those on Lemnos and Tera) closely resembling Etruscan writings. This Tyrrhenian script could be the link between Phoenician and Greek letters. Most of the Latin letters are indeed derived from Etruscan only reversed because of the change of the writing direction (but most ancient Greek and Latin inscriptions are also right to left in Phoenician manner).
There is also a theory deriving the Germanic runes from Etruscan alphabet which seems more plausible given the geographical proximity, but I doubt it - the only evidence is a short inscription on a helmet found in Negau and the order of the Futhark is completely different from that of Semitic alphabets and their derivates.
Actually many ancient alphabets seem similar, but this doesn't necessarily imply a relation. When the most simple forms are sought (for writing on a hard material like stone or wood) there isn't much possibilities.
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 20, 2011 1:46:51 GMT 3
Well what I've told can indeed be dumb but I thought it could be possible because I don't believe in coincidences. I still believe though that Etruscans are Indo-European. What is Indo-European? What's meant by calling someone Indo-European? If it's a linguistic term, then no. they are not Indo-European. Is it something racial? If it is, then once again no. Because there are people who are "Caucasian" but is not Indo-European.
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