Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 18, 2004 22:23:30 GMT 3
(Originially posted by me at November 2, 2004)
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I think the famous kurgan found in Kazakstan near Issyk-Köl back in 1970 remains one of history's mysteries. It's been claimed that this kurgan was the second grave with the most gold found in it after Tutankhamen's tomb; there are thousands of gold pieces and even an entire golden dress.
However, one thing that bugs me is the small silver plate with a small inscription found at the kurgan. The kurgan is dated to IIRC 6th-5th centuries BC, the inscription is written in a runic-type script and many people have tried to decipher it, one of these being Süleymanov who claimed this inscription to be Turkic, which I highly doubt.
So, to which people did this kurgan belong to? Could it be Central Asian Sakas? The Wusun? Who else?
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(Originially posted by karakhan at November 3, 2004)
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many Kazakhs will disagree with me but I think it dates to the era of the Sakas, most likely due to the age of the clothing ;D
Clothing style does not seem "Turkic" at the time.
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(Originially posted by Rava at November 3, 2004)
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I think that most scholars consider this place as belonging to Saka culture. Kazakhs are lucky to have such a monuments in their country despite to what culture it belonged. What a wonderfull place it is I heard that the Armenian monastery was found there and the body of St. Mathiew might be there. I belive that "patriotic oriented" historicians won't be trying to proof that St.Matthiew would be of Turkic origin
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(Originially posted by me at November 3, 2004)
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Hmm, I'm now starting to think that the Issyk-Köl kurgan might be from the Iranic Sakas, because images of Indo-European "Life-Tree"s have been found on some of the golden objects.
However, I haven't seen enough examples of art belonging to the Ordos Xiongnu, Asian Saka, Wusun and other Ist millenium BC Central Asian cultures so that I can compare and try to find out something
But what about the inscription?
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(Originially posted by Elteber at November 6, 2004)
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Hi, all!
I had a good time reading this thread...... ;D
Fist of all, Issyk-Köl lake is located in Kyrgyzstan, not in Kazakhstan.
Secondly, the kurgan was found on the left bank of Issyk mountain river 50 km to the east from Almaty. It's indeed in Kazakhstan. But it's very close to Kyrgyz-Kazakh border as you can see from the map.
Ihsan, I think the title of this thread should be changed!!! What do you think?
Armenian monastery was found in Kyrgyzstan and there are speculations that the body of St.Mathiew might be in Kyrgyzstan. All these pertain to Issyk-Kol lake.
So, Kazakhstan has nothing to do with that. ;D
I thought it was widely accepted that the site was a Sakas Kurgan.... Of course, I might be wrong!
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(Originially posted by me at November 6, 2004)
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Hi Elteber, welcome to our forum!
I know that Issyk-Köl is located at Kyrgyzstan but the kurgan was found inside the borders of Kazakstan
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(Originially posted by Elteber at November 7, 2004)
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Merhaba, Ihsan!
I really didn't get your point. Probably, I didn't express myself clearly.
The name of the topic is Mystery of the Issyk-Köl Kurgan.
The problem is that it's called Issyk Kurgan or Issyk Burial. It's not known by the title Issyk-Köl Kurgan.
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(Originially posted by me at November 7, 2004)
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Jaqshï bolïr Elteber
Ok I got your point; but I've seen the name with "-köl" all the time here in Turkey - maybe that's an inaccurate name used here only, I don't know.
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(Originially posted by Rava at November 7, 2004)
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I belive that Issyk burial and thousands of ancient artefacts belong to our cywilization. In fact this particular place was in the middle of Saka/Scythian mate spreaded as far as to Jenisiej River. The oldest -dated 1200-900 BC - example of typical Scythian " animal style" form was uncovered in Aržan. That was so called "deer stone".
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(Originially posted by me at November 7, 2004)
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"Your" civilisation? You mean Poland? Or the Indo-Europeans?
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(Originially posted by Rava at November 7, 2004)
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No!!! Mankind Civilization... ;D
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(Originially posted by me at November 7, 2004)
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Hehe, I see...
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I think the famous kurgan found in Kazakstan near Issyk-Köl back in 1970 remains one of history's mysteries. It's been claimed that this kurgan was the second grave with the most gold found in it after Tutankhamen's tomb; there are thousands of gold pieces and even an entire golden dress.
However, one thing that bugs me is the small silver plate with a small inscription found at the kurgan. The kurgan is dated to IIRC 6th-5th centuries BC, the inscription is written in a runic-type script and many people have tried to decipher it, one of these being Süleymanov who claimed this inscription to be Turkic, which I highly doubt.
So, to which people did this kurgan belong to? Could it be Central Asian Sakas? The Wusun? Who else?
----------------
(Originially posted by karakhan at November 3, 2004)
----
many Kazakhs will disagree with me but I think it dates to the era of the Sakas, most likely due to the age of the clothing ;D
Clothing style does not seem "Turkic" at the time.
----------------
(Originially posted by Rava at November 3, 2004)
----
I think that most scholars consider this place as belonging to Saka culture. Kazakhs are lucky to have such a monuments in their country despite to what culture it belonged. What a wonderfull place it is I heard that the Armenian monastery was found there and the body of St. Mathiew might be there. I belive that "patriotic oriented" historicians won't be trying to proof that St.Matthiew would be of Turkic origin
----------------
(Originially posted by me at November 3, 2004)
----
Hmm, I'm now starting to think that the Issyk-Köl kurgan might be from the Iranic Sakas, because images of Indo-European "Life-Tree"s have been found on some of the golden objects.
However, I haven't seen enough examples of art belonging to the Ordos Xiongnu, Asian Saka, Wusun and other Ist millenium BC Central Asian cultures so that I can compare and try to find out something
But what about the inscription?
----------------
(Originially posted by Elteber at November 6, 2004)
----
Hi, all!
I had a good time reading this thread...... ;D
I think the famous kurgan found in Kazakstan near Issyk-Köl back in 1970 remains one of history's mysteries.....
Fist of all, Issyk-Köl lake is located in Kyrgyzstan, not in Kazakhstan.
Secondly, the kurgan was found on the left bank of Issyk mountain river 50 km to the east from Almaty. It's indeed in Kazakhstan. But it's very close to Kyrgyz-Kazakh border as you can see from the map.
Ihsan, I think the title of this thread should be changed!!! What do you think?
Kazakhs are lucky to have such a monuments in their country despite to what culture it belonged. What a wonderfull place it is I heard that the Armenian monastery was found there and the body of St. Mathiew might be there.
Armenian monastery was found in Kyrgyzstan and there are speculations that the body of St.Mathiew might be in Kyrgyzstan. All these pertain to Issyk-Kol lake.
So, Kazakhstan has nothing to do with that. ;D
many Kazakhs will disagree with me but I think it dates to the era of the Sakas, most likely due to the age of the clothing
I thought it was widely accepted that the site was a Sakas Kurgan.... Of course, I might be wrong!
----------------
(Originially posted by me at November 6, 2004)
----
Fist of all, Issyk-Köl lake is located in Kyrgyzstan, not in Kazakhstan.
Secondly, the kurgan was found on the left bank of Issyk mountain river 50 km to the east from Almaty. It's indeed in Kazakhstan. But it's very close to Kyrgyz-Kazakh border as you can see from the map.
Secondly, the kurgan was found on the left bank of Issyk mountain river 50 km to the east from Almaty. It's indeed in Kazakhstan. But it's very close to Kyrgyz-Kazakh border as you can see from the map.
Hi Elteber, welcome to our forum!
I know that Issyk-Köl is located at Kyrgyzstan but the kurgan was found inside the borders of Kazakstan
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(Originially posted by Elteber at November 7, 2004)
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Merhaba, Ihsan!
I know that Issyk-Köl is located at Kyrgyzstan but the kurgan was found inside the borders of Kazakstan
I really didn't get your point. Probably, I didn't express myself clearly.
The name of the topic is Mystery of the Issyk-Köl Kurgan.
The problem is that it's called Issyk Kurgan or Issyk Burial. It's not known by the title Issyk-Köl Kurgan.
Chieftain or Warrior Priestess? Volume 50 Number 5, September/October 1997
by Jeannine Davis-Kimball
New evidence suggests that the ancient nomad buried in this suit of gold may have been a woman. (Courtesy Jeannine Davis-Kimball) [LARGER IMAGE]
In the spring of 1969, a farmer from the Issyk collective farm, 31 miles east of Alma Ata (now Almaty) in southern Kazakhstan, was preparing the soil for planting when he noticed something glinting in the furrow left by his plow. Pushing the soil aside with his boot, he exposed a small gold plaque--treasure from a burial in a large kurgan, one of several that broke the flatness of the field. The central tomb in the kurgan had been plundered in antiquity, but the robbers had missed a rich burial hidden in the side of the mound. The farmer reported it immediately, and Kemal Akishev of the Kazakh Institute of History, Ethnography, and Archaeology (now the Kazakh Institute of Archaeology) hurried to Issyk and began systematic excavation of the kurgan. Akishev and his colleagues soon uncovered a sarcophagus constructed from large fir logs, within which they found a skeleton covered with 4,000 gold ornaments.
Although the burial was said to be of a man, the headdress reminded the Kazakh excavators of hats worn by brides in traditional wedding ceremonies. Kazakh bridal hats, part of a dowry passed from generation to generation, are also decorated with ornamental plaques of gold and silver cast from coins. Artifacts in the Issyk burial are so similar to those that we have found in burials of women warriors and priestesses at Pokrovka in the southern Ural steppe (see ARCHAEOLOGY, March/April 1997) that we cannot help speculating that this person was actually a young woman. Three earrings adorned with turquoise, and carnelian and white beads, perhaps from a necklace, suggest more elaborate jewelry than is usually associated with male Saka warriors.
Jeannine Davis-Kimball is director of the Center for the Study of Eurasian Nomads.
www.archaeology.org/9709/abstracts/gold.html
by Jeannine Davis-Kimball
New evidence suggests that the ancient nomad buried in this suit of gold may have been a woman. (Courtesy Jeannine Davis-Kimball) [LARGER IMAGE]
In the spring of 1969, a farmer from the Issyk collective farm, 31 miles east of Alma Ata (now Almaty) in southern Kazakhstan, was preparing the soil for planting when he noticed something glinting in the furrow left by his plow. Pushing the soil aside with his boot, he exposed a small gold plaque--treasure from a burial in a large kurgan, one of several that broke the flatness of the field. The central tomb in the kurgan had been plundered in antiquity, but the robbers had missed a rich burial hidden in the side of the mound. The farmer reported it immediately, and Kemal Akishev of the Kazakh Institute of History, Ethnography, and Archaeology (now the Kazakh Institute of Archaeology) hurried to Issyk and began systematic excavation of the kurgan. Akishev and his colleagues soon uncovered a sarcophagus constructed from large fir logs, within which they found a skeleton covered with 4,000 gold ornaments.
Although the burial was said to be of a man, the headdress reminded the Kazakh excavators of hats worn by brides in traditional wedding ceremonies. Kazakh bridal hats, part of a dowry passed from generation to generation, are also decorated with ornamental plaques of gold and silver cast from coins. Artifacts in the Issyk burial are so similar to those that we have found in burials of women warriors and priestesses at Pokrovka in the southern Ural steppe (see ARCHAEOLOGY, March/April 1997) that we cannot help speculating that this person was actually a young woman. Three earrings adorned with turquoise, and carnelian and white beads, perhaps from a necklace, suggest more elaborate jewelry than is usually associated with male Saka warriors.
Jeannine Davis-Kimball is director of the Center for the Study of Eurasian Nomads.
www.archaeology.org/9709/abstracts/gold.html
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(Originially posted by me at November 7, 2004)
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Jaqshï bolïr Elteber
Ok I got your point; but I've seen the name with "-köl" all the time here in Turkey - maybe that's an inaccurate name used here only, I don't know.
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(Originially posted by Rava at November 7, 2004)
----
I belive that Issyk burial and thousands of ancient artefacts belong to our cywilization. In fact this particular place was in the middle of Saka/Scythian mate spreaded as far as to Jenisiej River. The oldest -dated 1200-900 BC - example of typical Scythian " animal style" form was uncovered in Aržan. That was so called "deer stone".
----------------
(Originially posted by me at November 7, 2004)
----
I belive that Issyk burial and thousands of ancient artefacts belong to our cywilization.
"Your" civilisation? You mean Poland? Or the Indo-Europeans?
----------------
(Originially posted by Rava at November 7, 2004)
----
No!!! Mankind Civilization... ;D
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(Originially posted by me at November 7, 2004)
----
Hehe, I see...