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Post by jamyangnorbu on Jan 12, 2011 22:15:00 GMT 3
I also don't understand how Pan-Iranian is better than Pan-Turkic from the Russian perspective? That is just nonsense. Of course it isn't more beneficial. It would be nice if these observations you shared were based on something other than the implication of grand conspiracies to repress the Turkic origins of everything. Being that this is a history forum, we should be operating under the realization that nothing occurs in a vacuum. That period saw Stalinist purges of many different professions and ethnic groups including Kalmyks, Caucasian peoples, and Muslim Ossetians amongst others.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 15, 2011 4:03:30 GMT 3
I think that the man from the Esik Kurgan is proto Turkic. The reason I think so is because the translation of the script on the silver cup and the runic script. For more than 3 years I've been researching about the Esik Kurgan. But I got no further information than the fact that the Europeans already accepted them as an Indo-European, a Scythian. I don't like reading Turkish sources because I want to learn from an other view, other than Turkish.
The Turkic translation is far more logical than the attempt of trying to translate it with a 'Khotanese Sakha' language with an absurd translation as a result.
The reason they don't want accept the fact that it is Turkic is, because the Europeans want to claim it. They want to claim that most of the Central Asians actually were Indo-European in origin and that the people who live there are influenced by those the Indo-Europeans. I've been reading researches of Europeans and all I can conclude is this: they think they are right about their analysis and theyre stubborn over it. This blinds their eyes and prevents them from discovering new elements, theyre under heavy influence in trying to prove it is Indo-European, without succes.
The research of the Europeans is like this: is the mummie blond? Does it have green eyes or blue eyes, or does it have an Iranian name or Iranian title or do these people have Iranian or Indo-European words in their language? = IT IS INDO-EUROPEAN!! Believe me, with this ignorant foolish thought they claimed every kurgan and every culture as their own, even the cultures which belonged to the proto-Turkic! I could not even find ONE culture in European sources which was proto-Turkic!
The fact they also strongly deny that the Esik kurgan is a Turkic Kurgan is because of the script. They strongly deny it is a Turkic sript because the translation was done in Orkhon script and the Kurgan is from BCE while the Orkhon script is from much later.
I've also researched the Orkhon runes for many years. I do not say I'm an expert but with all the info I gather I could make some assumptions, don't you think? European sources STRONGLY agree the Orkhon script is derived from Soghdian-Syriac-Aramaic-Phoenician-Proto-Sinaitic. At wikpedia Soghdian is marked as CONTROVERSIAL. So this means it's not 100% the Göktürk took it from the Soghdians. What's more strange is, how could the Gokturks have taken if from the Syriac if they didn't have any connection at all if the controversial mark came true and the Gokturks didnt take it from the Soghdians?
Then we must conclude that the Sogdhians used the Syriac script and the Gokturks used the same Syriac script!
Well I investigated the Syriac script and say what, NONE of the letters resembled an Orkhun letter. It looked more like the Uygur, Mongolian and Semitic scripts like Arabic and Hebrew. And indeed, the Sogdhian script resembled much the Syriac script also!
But I could easily conclude this: the old Uygur script looks very much like it, I could recognize Uygur letters in Soghdian, Syriac and in the other script who are a parent writing of it.
About the Orkhon script. I've read that it's also a possible alternative that the Orkhon script could be a derivation from tamgas. Because The Old Turkic script contains some symbols of the Turkic ideograms, which is part of the Turkic culture. If you look at the letter Y in Orkhun script it's a BOW and bow in Turkish means YAY and the Y is taken from YAY. The same could be said about the letter O. The letter OQ is an arrow and in Turkish OK means ARROW, so O is taken from OQ.
This proves that the Orkhon script is not exectly derived from the Soghdian script but is created according the sound system of important objects.
So according to this theory the Orkhon script is not limited to the Gokturks era. Because there are no written records of previous Turkic people it is higly possible the Orkhon script was also used by the Xiongnu and those before them.
But the scripts looked also developed. So if the Gokturks ancestors are indeed the Xiongnu, then the Xiongnu also must have used them! But we can never know because there's no written record. REMEMBER, this are all LOGICAL thoughts done by me according to information of various sources and from many Turkologists!
So let's go back to the Esik Kurgan. It's not a coincidence the silver cup looks like the Orkhon script and according to the Orkhon script, it gives us a VERY VERY logical translation.
If you know, there is a forgotten Turkic tribe far in the north. The Sakha Turks. It is also not a coincidence they are called Sakha and it's totally not a coincidence the golden armor of the esik kurgan resemble the clothing of the Sakha Turkic.
MAYBE the golden armored man was Alp Er Tunga, the Sakha hero of the Turkic peoples who lived in 7th BCE according to the legend.
There was also a saying that Modu Chanyu was decendant of the Sakhas who originated in the north. But it was a long time ago I don't remember the source.
And who told the Scythians and Sakha were one and the same? I do not say the Scythians were proto Turkic but according to me the kurgan is Turkic.
Like I said, if an Empire has an European language, title, name or if its people have blonde hair and blue eyes = IT IS INDO EUROPEAN!! The Ottoman Empire, official language was Ottoman 40% Arabic 50% Persian and 10% Turkic. So according to their research the Ottoman was Persian?
Seljuq Empires official language also was Persian. Let's say if one of the sultans was buried in a kurgan, with very much gold and with a Persian script, 2000 years later according to the European scientisst that Kurgan and the Seljuqs would be Indo-European in origin! And the Seljuq remains of the Kurgans would show that the Seljuq Empire had ties with Turkish culture OR that some of the Iranic Seljuq Empire's soldiers were Turkic!
I am very open minded about facts, I am not blind, I listen, analyse and don't claim over people or tribes like the 'HUN' Gary (a Hun named Gary???) -ians do by claiming Atilla the Hun and the Huns. I do not make bold assumptions and don't think I am ignorant or that I 100% agree with what I said. Like I told: this was all my logical way of thinking gathered from the information of many years.
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Post by merlkir on Sept 15, 2011 12:12:48 GMT 3
"I do not make bold assumptions"
You do. You'll like Ancalimon.
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 15, 2011 12:47:05 GMT 3
Mado Tanhu: In my opinion you make an error. You don't see the possibility that Scytians belonged to the Indo European "race" or "culture" but could have been Turks (using "Turk" in the sense as how it's understood today). Well.. I look like an "Indo-European" (and my eyes are a mixture of Green-Blue-Amber) but my ancestors are Turks according to what my great-great grandfather told his grandson. You make the assumption that people who spoke Turkic must have belonged to the same culture, ethnic structure. That would be a bit romantic nationalism. My bold assumption is that I think there were people who spoke Turkic (or maybe most of them spoke Turkic) among Indo-Europeans and Proto-Indo-Europeans. But this doesn't necessarily make them Turkic or "friends of Turks". Today there are many Kurds in Turkey who speak only Turkic but does this make them Turks? Yes in my opinion because the only thing common among Turks is language and I am sure it was like this in the past too. Regarding Ottoman Empire. I am doing a research about exactly what you are telling us and I can easily say that Ottomans were European wannabe people and they promoted Persian-Arabic culture and language to a population mainly composing of "Indo-European" people. Yet most of these people somehow miraculously started speaking Turkic despite the migrating goat herder Turks lived isolated from the so-called native people of Turkey and were a minority who couldn't contribute to the genetic structure of Turkey and the reason behind this was never researched and it requires a scientific study alone. and Hungar is ON OGUR and they are related with Oguz people. UR is the suffix (just like UZ in OGUZ) giving it the meaning of "belonging to a group", "plural". Og is either "the ability to think (related to "Proto-Turkic -öðre) or "the ability to walk on two legs" and probably related to OK - OQ meaning "arrow, erect, straight, leader, confirmation, upright person " Regarding Orkhon tamgas. You are right. But it's too early for conclusions right now. We need proper scientific study and more findings and finally agree upon whether there is a connection between Sumerian-Etruscan-Hungarian and Turkic languages. and seriously I really like merlkir and I'm sure we would have great fun drinking beer together. (and a slap or two on my head for my bold assumptions and all the pain he suffered because of them)
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 15, 2011 13:40:10 GMT 3
I just said I think like that it's not a bold assumption. The reason I think so is because of the content of the script in Turkic translation. The Turkic translation is talking about a Tigin so it most probably is talking about a Turkic tribe.
Don't worry, I won't deny the fact that it also COULD be an IE tribe with Turkic as their language.
You think I say it's a Turkic kurgan because the script is according to me Turkic, yet I was talking about the content of the message.
The body of the man is lost so whether he has blue eyes or green eyes or blond hair is still not know.
What are the proofs for saying it's Scythian? According to the European researchers it's because of their thinking it's an IE Kharoshti Sakha script.
By this I didn't say that the Scythians are Turkic. But to which people the man from the kurgan belong to. Researchers should try to examine this.
I am questioning this; is this Kurgan really Scythian? Are the Scythian and Sakha the same?
And I didn't take any conclusion I just told it was my logical way of thinking based on facts, I didn't say it is like that.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 15, 2011 14:33:53 GMT 3
I've also researched the Orkhon runes for many years. I do not say I'm an expert but with all the info I gather I could make some assumptions, don't you think? European sources STRONGLY agree the Orkhon script is derived from Soghdian-Syriac-Aramaic-Phoenician-Proto-Sinaitic. At wikpedia Soghdian is marked as CONTROVERSIAL. So this means it's not 100% the Göktürk took it from the Soghdians. What's more strange is, how could the Gokturks have taken if from the Syriac if they didn't have any connection at all if the controversial mark came true and the Gokturks didnt take it from the Soghdians? Then we must conclude that the Sogdhians used the Syriac script and the Gokturks used the same Syriac script! Well I investigated the Syriac script and say what, NONE of the letters resembled an Orkhun letter. It looked more like the Uygur, Mongolian and Semitic scripts like Arabic and Hebrew. And indeed, the Sogdhian script resembled much the Syriac script also! But I could easily conclude this: the old Uygur script looks very much like it, I could recognize Uygur letters in Soghdian, Syriac and in the other script who are a parent writing of it. About the Orkhon script. I've read that it's also a possible alternative that the Orkhon script could be a derivation from tamgas. Because The Old Turkic script contains some symbols of the Turkic ideograms, which is part of the Turkic culture. If you look at the letter Y in Orkhun script it's a BOW and bow in Turkish means YAY and the Y is taken from YAY. The same could be said about the letter O. The letter OQ is an arrow and in Turkish OK means ARROW, so O is taken from OQ. This proves that the Orkhon script is not exectly derived from the Soghdian script but is created according the sound system of important objects. So according to this theory the Orkhon script is not limited to the Gokturks era. Because there are no written records of previous Turkic people it is higly possible the Orkhon script was also used by the Xiongnu and those before them. But the scripts looked also developed. So if the Gokturks ancestors are indeed the Xiongnu, then the Xiongnu also must have used them! But we can never know because there's no written record. REMEMBER, this are all LOGICAL thoughts done by me according to information of various sources and from many Turkologists! Actually a recently-discovered fiddle found in a cave in western Mongolia has a Turkic runic inscription and the fiddle is dated to the 5th century AD, making it the earliest-known (and confirmed) Turkic runic inscription so far. It probably belonged to the Turkic tribes who are known in Chinese sources as "High Carts (Gao-che 高車)". Regarding the origins of the Turkic runic script, I tend to believe that it developed from two different origins, one being the old Turkic tamghas you mentioned, and the Old Iranic-Semitic writing systems must have provided some contributions to the development of the script because I have realised that the script follows some Semitic writing rules (such as being written from right to left, the avoiding of writing vowels, etc).
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 15, 2011 14:54:18 GMT 3
I also think that the Orkhon script is original Turkic influenced by the Semitic script and that it developed from two different origins like you said. But saying it directly derives from the Semitic script is a bit too much. According to what I've read, it is stil debatable and controversial that the Orkhon script is derived from the Syriac-Aramaic-Soghdian script. A long time ago I also found out the Xiongnu had a writing system, here is the article from Wikipdia: Xiongnu writing, older than Turkic is agreed to have the earliest known Turkic alphabet, the Orkhon script. This has been argued recently using the only extant possibly Xiongu writings, the rock art of the Yinshan and Helanshan. It is dated from the 9th millennium BC to 19th century, and consists mainly of engraved signs (petroglyphs) and few painted images. Excavations done during 1924–1925, in Noin-Ula kurgans located in Selenga River in the northern Mongolian hills north of Ulan Bator, produced objects with over 20 carved characters, which were either identical or very similar to that of to the runic letters of the Turkic Orkhon script discovered in the Orkhon Valley. Here is the alphabet: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/90/Fig6Ishjamts_p166R1.gif/350px-Fig6Ishjamts_p166R1.gif
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Post by Ardavarz on Sept 16, 2011 4:31:03 GMT 3
There is a mention of Xiongnu writing in later Chinese chronicles where an ambassador to the Fungan kingdom (in 3th century Cambodia) tells that their writing is similar to that of the Huns. Most scholars tend to ignore this report because the Cambodian script (from Indian origin) doesn't seem to resemble the Steppe writings. However I think the question that should be asked is: while that Chinese ambassador compared Cambodian writing with Hunnic, what did he mean - "similar" in what way? It might not be similar as far as the form of the signs is concerned, but it could mean that the principle of writing is similar. For instance Cambodian script is sillabic using two different signs for the consonants in combination with A or O: www.ancientscripts.com/khmer.htmlAnd this resembles the principle of the Orkhon Turkic script which uses two different consonant signs with back and front vowels. Maybe that was the "similarity" mentioned in the Chinese document and not some semblance of the form. If so, maybe the Xiongnu have indeed developed the prototype of the Orkhon script.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 16, 2011 14:03:55 GMT 3
I know those inscriptions at Noin Ula. They are indeed inscriptions in Chinese; you can find a study of those inscriptions at A. N. Bernshtam's book about the Asian Huns: kronk.narod.ru/library/bernshtam-an-1951-01.htmDo you know exactly in which Chinese source and where this information is given? I heard about this many years ago but never came across it in the sources themselves. I won't be surprised.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 16, 2011 17:35:27 GMT 3
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 16, 2011 19:43:50 GMT 3
Btw, Saka and Sakha are two different peoples, they should not be confused.
The question that comes to my mind is, was the owner of that armor really a man? Might have been a woman too.
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Post by Ardavarz on Sept 16, 2011 23:28:49 GMT 3
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 16, 2011 23:29:13 GMT 3
Yeah I confused them but you know which I meant. Some historians indeed proposed that it could be a young princess.
But to me the armor looks 'manly'.
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 17, 2011 4:06:46 GMT 3
I also think that the Orkhon script is original Turkic influenced by the Semitic script and that it developed from two different origins like you said. But saying it directly derives from the Semitic script is a bit too much. According to what I've read, it is stil debatable and controversial that the Orkhon script is derived from the Syriac-Aramaic-Soghdian script. A long time ago I also found out the Xiongnu had a writing system, here is the article from Wikipdia: Xiongnu writing, older than Turkic is agreed to have the earliest known Turkic alphabet, the Orkhon script. This has been argued recently using the only extant possibly Xiongu writings, the rock art of the Yinshan and Helanshan. It is dated from the 9th millennium BC to 19th century, and consists mainly of engraved signs (petroglyphs) and few painted images. Excavations done during 1924–1925, in Noin-Ula kurgans located in Selenga River in the northern Mongolian hills north of Ulan Bator, produced objects with over 20 carved characters, which were either identical or very similar to that of to the runic letters of the Turkic Orkhon script discovered in the Orkhon Valley. Here is the alphabet: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/90/Fig6Ishjamts_p166R1.gif/350px-Fig6Ishjamts_p166R1.gifThanks Here is a (unfortunately only in Turkish) thesis talking about how Orkhun script before being "deciphered" was being used especially in Eastern Europe and Scandinavia by monks, pilgrims and scientists and that this was never talked about. It also talks about the unnecessary attention that the decipherment of Orkhun script gained. It also talks about how there was already a transcription of Orkhon tamgas-letters-runes in Hungary during the 15th century. It talks about how a similar alphabet is used by Sekels in Transilvania and that Hungarian experts say that Roman numerals and Etruscan letters came from Kok Turk letters. It also talks about Hungarian history and that it mentions that this Sekel writing was brought to Hungary by Huns (Avars). It talks about books written with KokTurk letters left by Huns found in Carpathian Basin when Magyars were first seen there. After St.Stephan became Christian in 1000AD everything related to KokTurk letters were destroyed during another Iconoclasm but a few were saved and were left. Conclusion: A version of Orkhun script was already being used in Scandinavia and Eastern Europe before Orkhun inscriptions were deciphered. www.cagdas.aku.edu.tr/bs/bildiriler/idogan.pdf
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 17, 2011 14:40:46 GMT 3
I read the article. I know Mr. Doğan's way of working and he is quite "un-academic" if you ask me. I also have his two big books about his so-called "Turkic Runic inscriptions" from Eastern Europe and Caucasia - what I saw is that he goes to a cave or somewhere else, sees some naturally-formed water traces that resemble sticks carved on rocks, and claims them to be inscriptions. Besides, if you check the article in detail, you can see that he quotes some wacko Hungarian "scholars" who claim that Roman and Etruscan alphabets and numerals derived from the Szekely runic script - which is simply impossible. Besides, yes indeed there are some letters that look similar between Germanic, Turkic and Hungarian runes, but most of these are just similar in shape, not in sound. Though sound similarities are more common between Turkic and Hungarian runes which is normal. Indeed, the various Turkic nomads that inhabited the Pontic-Caspian steppes must have provided some basis for the development of this Szekely script. But as far as the Germanic runes are involved, they got no connection with the Steppe as far as we know for now. Mr. Doğan seems to jump to conclusions a bit too early, if you ask me. A scientist must be more cautious in such cases.
I see.
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