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Post by ancalimon on May 22, 2011 19:27:07 GMT 3
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kul_TiginAre there any work about the etymology of "Kül"? I'd be grateful if someone gave a link to it or pasted it here. Could it be related in some way to "embrace", "encircle", "gather together", "call together", "come together"? or "spread out", "expand" Thus: Kül Tigin: Tigin who gathered,called people together, who embraced people, etc... ? Thus the Russian word kolokol (bell) might be related to calling people together in the reiterative sense (callcall) or maybe Turkish (gelgel:comecome) www.vipbells.com/kolokola.shtmlMaybe there is some connection to kalabalık (crowd or all the city) or kolukomşu (all the neighbourhood) as well? remember that Balıq: city from Divanu Lugati't Türk: kölerdi: kölerdi suw: Su bir gölette birikti (the water was collected in a pond)
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 23, 2011 2:57:22 GMT 3
Osman Fikri Sertkaya once published an article on this matter, defending the view that it was Köl Tigin meaning "Lake Prince," and not Kül Tigin. He connects it with Mahmud of Kashghar's explanation of the title Köl Irkin where he explained this title as "it is related with the lake, because it means that the title helder's wisdom is as big as a lake". The article was later also published in this book: www.nadirkitap.com/gokturk-tarihinin-meseleleri-osman-fikri-sertkaya-t2-kitap623228.html
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Post by benzin on May 23, 2011 12:06:01 GMT 3
Im not saying old turkic words all has a connection to hungarian but many does. Kül means outside, outbound lik means whole, and city balik or birlik means capital city.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 23, 2011 14:57:11 GMT 3
Balik is a loanword from Old Turkic, coming from Balïq meaning "City/town made from mud (bricks)".
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Post by ancalimon on May 29, 2011 23:10:43 GMT 3
thanks to all of you!
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Post by benzin on May 30, 2011 13:49:06 GMT 3
Balik doesnt exists in hungarian, I just guessed it could mean capital city because as our language changed in the centuries türkic ba and finnish pa became fõ in hungarian (this is one of the basic changes according to official finno-ugrist studies), lik is the same as ever said so and means both small place to live and cave. so balik must mean head place, I dont see other option.
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Post by aynur on May 30, 2011 19:27:59 GMT 3
Going a bit off-topic here, but in Finnish a capital city is called pääkaupunki.
pää(head, main) + kaupunki(city)
Some similarity with the Hungarian words.
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Post by benzin on May 30, 2011 19:35:32 GMT 3
Im 100% sure in finnish paa is related to turkic ba, bash. Its only my theory but I think turkic and finn-ugrian languages developed together for many thousand years, these are not loanwords, these are common words from the most ancient times of mankind.
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Post by aynur on May 30, 2011 20:04:24 GMT 3
Well, yeah. Considering the fact that Finnish people and their culture developed far away from the steppe, it's quite astonishing.
I also have to admit that whenever I listen to a song in Turkic language, there's a similarity with Finnish and other Ugric languages.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 31, 2011 23:38:42 GMT 3
I'm quite close with some Finnish people and I can say I never get the feeling of any similarity or relativeness when I'm listening or reading to Finnish. The grammar is similar though. Besides, sometimes there are some very interesting similarities such as the possessive suffix -in/-un.
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Post by aynur on Jun 1, 2011 10:27:45 GMT 3
The possible relation is undoubtedly distant, but a friend of mine who is a Finn and lives in Antalya, Turkey says that most of the Finnish and Estonian people who move there have a significantly easier time learning the language than Germans, Italians and so on.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 2, 2011 15:52:08 GMT 3
That's possible because of the grammar similarities. For example, both Turkish and Finnish lack artikels, which is something a bit hard for Indo-European speakers to understand.
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Post by jamyangnorbu on Jun 2, 2011 19:11:02 GMT 3
That's possible because of the grammar similarities. For example, both Turkish and Finnish lack artikels, which is something a bit hard for Indo-European speakers to understand. With the exception of the Baltic and Slavic languages of Europe, which also lack articles. This seems to have been the case for Proto-Indo-European as well. There seems to be a corollary in IE languages between the heavier reliance on definite and indefinite articles and the simplification of the previously rich PIE inflection system. Those languages that preserved a richer system of inflection seem to have been more resistant to this adoption.
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Post by hjernespiser on Jun 2, 2011 21:18:12 GMT 3
Scandinavian languages lack definite articles. The indefinite article in all the IE languages I know derives from the word for "one" (even English a/an) and this concept is used in, for example, Turkish. Hungarian has articles and uses its definite article quite more frequently than even English.
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Post by jamyangnorbu on Jun 3, 2011 2:37:24 GMT 3
Scandinavian languages lack definite articles. I will confess a nearly complete ignorance of the modern Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish languages, but Icelandic and Old Norse definitely have a grammatical concept of definiteness, although it isn't expressed using prepositions. For example, hestur (horse) is rendered in the definite as hesturinn (the horse), and maður (man) is rendered maðurinn(the man). I just glanced through wikipedia(admittedly not a definitive resource [no pun intended]) and it seems that Swedish, at least, has a similar use of suffixes to express definiteness. Agreed. Interesting to read. OT: Tibetan likewise makes use of gcig (གཅིག), meaning "one", to express the indefinite, and even evolved a set of sandhi rules for modifying the sound and orthography of gcig based on the preceding consonant endings. Understood. I was limiting my comments to Indo-European languages, though your comment vis-à-vis Hungarian is interesting considering the apparent desire to lump various finno-ugric language features in with a purported shared origin with Turkic languages. Do you know if any of the other urgric languages make recourse to the definite article? All the best, JN
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