Vardariotai

[MagyarTanhu]

Mar 11, 2010 18:28:36 GMT 3 sarmat said:

I read the opposite.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabars

Do not rely purely on wikipedia. Everybody can write what they want.
Look at the Reference on that page.

And even nothing about Secler connection. Just because it is writing they were settled in Transylvania? Bah!

[sarmat]

That wiki article just summarizes what is written in the two sources listed as references for it. And I read both of them.

[MagyarTanhu]

Mar 11, 2010 18:55:05 GMT 3 MagyarTanhu said:

Mar 11, 2010 18:28:36 GMT 3 sarmat said:

I read the opposite.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabars

Do not rely purely on wikipedia. Everybody can write what they want.
Look at the Reference on that page.

And even nothing about Secler connection. Just because it is writing they were settled in Transylvania? Bah!

From Hungarian Ethnological Lexicon - Hungarian Electronic Library:

mek.niif.hu/02100/02115/html/2-1739.html


kabarok

a török nyelvcsaládba tartozó nép. A 9. sz.-ban a kazároktól elszakadva külön törzsként a honfoglaló magyarsághoz csatlakoztak. Közösségük nem tekinthető egységes etnikumnak. Soraikban kimutathatók a török jellegű → kazárok, bolgárok (suvarok), iráni jellegű kalizok, alánok csoportjai. Hazánkban É-Mo.-on Abaúj, Borsod, Gömör, Heves, valamint Szepes megyékben, ill. Komáromban, Barsban és Biharban vethetünk számot töredékeik történeti nyomaival, ahol később a feudalizmus megszilárdulásával úgyszólván nyomtalanul beolvadtak. A romantikus magyar történetírás a → palócokat tekintette a kabarok leszármazottainak. Ezt a feltevést azonban a tudományos vizsgálatok nem igazolták.


I do not have patience now to translate it word by word so I put into google translate:

Kabars

language families of the Turkish people. 9 century in particular away from the Khazars törzsként joined the original settlers. Can not be considered a single ethnic community. Rows detected in the Turkish character → Khazars, Bulgarians (Suvari), Iran kalizok nature, groups of Alans. In our country, on the N-Abaúj Mo., Borsod, Gemer, Heves and Szepes counties, respectively. Komárom, Hungary, Bars and may levy a fraction of the number of historical traces of Bihar, which later merged trace virtually the consolidation of feudalism. The romantic history of the Hungarian → palócokat Kabars considered the descendants. This hypothesis, however, scientific studies have not been established.

translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmek.niif.hu%2F02100%2F02115%2Fhtml%2F2-1739.html&sl=hu&tl=en

[sarmat]

This piece mentions Bihar, a large part of which was in Translivania.

[MagyarTanhu]

Mar 11, 2010 19:35:18 GMT 3 sarmat said:

That wiki article just summarizes what is written in the two sources listed as references for it. And I read both of them.

Your wikipedia source - about kabar-székely relations:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabars


Many Kabars settled in the Bihar region of the later Kingdom of Hungary and Transylvania. Some historian believe that the character recorded by Gesta Hungarorum as lord Marot and his grandson Menumorut, dux of Biharia, were of Kabar descent[citation needed]. One of the names on the Kievian Letter is "Kiabar", which may suggest that Kabars settled in Kiev as well. At least some Kabars were Jewish; others may have been Christians, Muslims or shamanists.[1]

The presence of a Turkic aristocracy among the Magyars could explain the Byzantine protocol by which, in the exchange of ambassadors under Constantine Porphyrogenitus, Magyar rulers were always referred to as "Princes of the Turks". [2]

The Kabars eventually assimilated into the general Magyar population, leaving scattered remains and some cultural and linguistic imprints. Some scholars[citation needed] believe that the Székely are their descendants.

Can you see in the last sentence [citation needed] And even in the second sentence?

Those references you say you have read are for what else is displayed here. But you are not proving that you state that kabars were settled in Transylvania and are Seclers.

[MagyarTanhu]

Mar 11, 2010 22:52:23 GMT 3 sarmat said:

This piece mentions Bihar, a large part of which was in Translivania.

Yes, part of former Bihar county is in Romania now - belongs to Transylvania but is not a Secler population there. Even now, not every Hungarian in Romania is Secler

[sarmat]

As I said, those articles talk about theories that Szekelys originated from Kabars.

When I have more time, I can give the exact pages from them. Wiki is just the most handy and available tool.

You, however, only contradict yourself. You said that Kabars settlements were only in northern Hungary and Slovakia, while your own source claims that they settled in Bihar i.e. Transilvania in other words you didn't even bother to check your "source."

Finally, all of those are just theories that, perhaps, will never be 100% proved. The fact is just that Szekely particularities could be logically explained by a theory of their Kabar origin.

[sarmat]

Here is a good article that talks about the origins of Szekely.

It includes a big deal of their Turkic-Bulgar connection and link to Kabars, even Bihar is mentioned.

mek.niif.hu/03400/03407/html/71.html

[MagyarTanhu]

Mar 11, 2010 23:16:22 GMT 3 sarmat said:

Here is a good article that talks about the origins of Szekely.

It includes a big deal of their Turkic-Bulgar connection and link to Kabars, even Bihar is mentioned.

mek.niif.hu/03400/03407/html/71.html

Much better choice and even from the source I cited before!

But here is the word But! : ;D

I think you refer especially to this part:

According to a legend recorded by Constantine Porphyrogenetos, the Kabars, whose three tribes belonged to the Khazar people, rebelled and allied themselves with the Hungarians. As noted, {1-417.} Anonymus believed that the inhabitants of the Bihar region were Khazars; he relates that Árpád's youngest son, Zolta, married the daughter of the Khazar leader Ménmarót and subsequently inherited the land ruled by his father-in-law. By linking this legend to King St. Stephen's first Transylvanian voivode, 'Zoltán Erdőelvi', one can hypothesise that the Székelys were none other than the Kabars (i.e. Khazars); in the mid-900s, Constantine Porphyrogenetos recorded that the latter spoke not only their mother tongue (Bulgaro-Turkish) but also the (Finno-Ugric) language of the Hungarians. Their stay in Bihar would explain why they had become linguistically assimilated by the time they were led by 'Zoltán Erdőelvi' into Transylvania and settled between the Maros and the Olt. The central settlement in their new home was named Telegd, after one of their clans; and there is a Telegd in Bihar county as well. The toponyms Ábrány and Jenő might also have been the names of clans that earlier resided in Bihar.

Seclers were not only settled to Maros-Olt, they were even settled in current Slovakia - part of Czech and Austrian border, furthermore in the 13th century near Kanizsa, Pecs where they were occupied as border-guards and even their settlement in the mountains of Transylvania was fulfilling this aim. There is written also that you can hypothesise - what is not a proof.

and to prove it directly merit from the same source but in the next part:

Historians generally agree that the 'black Hungarians'' land lay eastward, between the Maros, Tisza, and Danube, a region that at the time was governed by Ajtony; but the term probably refers to all the people who lived under the gyulas' rule. Some historians have attributed an ethnic significance to the terms and concluded that 'black' designated the Kabars, who at the time could still be physically distinguished from the Hungarians. However, this supposition is ill-founded. The Kabars (particularly if that appellation is extended to the Székelys as well) were found not only in the gyulas' domain but also in areas under the direct rule of the prince, in Transdanubia, Bihar, and along the Nyitra River. Thus the information, cited by Bruno of Querfurt, that they were baptized in the Roman religion in 1008, cannot be correct, for these baptisms occurred mostly during Géza's reign and must have been completed by the year 1000. Since it was a custom among Turkic peoples to use the adjectives 'white' and 'black' in reference to levels of politico-military hierarchy, essentially to distinguish the rulers from the ruled, the most likely explanation is that in the context of Stephen's Hungary, 'black' referred to the part of the population that was yet to be 'subjected' to the king.

mek.niif.hu/03400/03407/html/69.html

But Ok, must admit that your last reference was more precise than the Wikipedia's before

Let's agree on that this is disputable - think I have given proven reference but you have given quite good contra argument with reference. Need further examination.

But here we distance a bit of the original topic that was the Varidorai. Meanwhile I have read that they were possible of Petcheneg origin.

[MagyarTanhu]

Mar 11, 2010 23:10:29 GMT 3 sarmat said:

As I said, those articles talk about theories that Szekelys originated from Kabars.

When I have more time, I can give the exact pages from them. Wiki is just the most handy and available tool.

You, however, only contradict yourself. You said that Kabars settlements were only in northern Hungary and Slovakia, while your own source claims that they settled in Bihar i.e. Transilvania in other words you didn't even bother to check your "source."

How I contradict myself? According to my source there is not mentioned Transylvania, Bihar is mentioned, yes but no Transylvania. Bihar was only small part of Transylvania not a major part com on, man! Except of Bihar, all the other places Abaúj, Borsod, Gömör, Heves and Szepes counties, respectively, Komárom, Bars are where I indicated before. Part of North-Hungary and Slovakia. Just look at atlas!

Kabars

language families of the Turkish people. 9 century in particular away from the Khazars törzsként joined the original settlers. Can not be considered a single ethnic community. Rows detected in the Turkish character → Khazars, Bulgarians (Suvari), Iran kalizok nature, groups of Alans. In our country, on the N-Abaúj Mo., Borsod, Gemer, Heves and Szepes counties, respectively. Komárom, Hungary, Bars and may levy a fraction of the number of historical traces of Bihar, which later merged trace virtually the consolidation of feudalism. The romantic history of the Hungarian → palócokat Kabars considered the descendants. This hypothesis, however, scientific studies have not been established.

translate.google.com/translate?js....tml&sl=hu&tl=en

So is a wrong assumption from you that I even did not check my source! Brother! ;D

[sarmat]

Yeah, the only thing I was trying to communicate that it is disputable and unclear. Nothing more precise can be said, unfortunately...

[sarmat]

Mar 12, 2010 0:19:17 GMT 3 MagyarTanhu said:

Mar 11, 2010 23:10:29 GMT 3 sarmat said:

As I said, those articles talk about theories that Szekelys originated from Kabars.

When I have more time, I can give the exact pages from them. Wiki is just the most handy and available tool.

You, however, only contradict yourself. You said that Kabars settlements were only in northern Hungary and Slovakia, while your own source claims that they settled in Bihar i.e. Transilvania in other words you didn't even bother to check your "source."

How I contradict myself? According to my source there is not mentioned Transylvania, Bihar is mentioned, yes but no Transylvania. Bihar was only small part of Transylvania not a major part com on, man! Except of Bihar, all the other places Abaúj, Borsod, Gömör, Heves and Szepes counties, respectively, Komárom, Bars are where I indicated before. Part of North-Hungary and Slovakia. Just look at atlas!

It was hard for me to tell, whether you meant just Bihar region in modern Hungary, or the historic region which includes both Hungarian and Transilvanian lands. Major part of Transilvania or not but it already proves that Kabars weren't only in North Hungary and Slovakia. Anyway, let's get back to the main topic...

[hjernespiser]

Agreed. I'm going to make my contribution about the "Kabar" discussion in a new thread...