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Post by hjernespiser on Nov 25, 2008 3:21:28 GMT 3
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Post by sarmat on Nov 25, 2008 19:35:01 GMT 3
Sure. Give me some time.
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Post by ceonni on Nov 26, 2008 17:57:01 GMT 3
Khanty and Mansi, simple
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Post by sarmat on Nov 26, 2008 18:49:19 GMT 3
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Post by hjernespiser on Jan 26, 2009 6:27:20 GMT 3
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Post by chichak on May 6, 2010 22:06:38 GMT 3
I recently read a Hungarian scholarly article arguing through the field of linguistic against the comparison of Magyar with Madyar, claiming that it does not fit the linguistic changes that happened in the Hungarian language. I'll try to drag out the article, although I'm afraid its in Hungarian.
Hjernespiser, I really think you should get a copy of the 2009 winter edition of The Hungarian Quarterly. Its got number of scholarly articles about the Hungarian ethnogenesis and one's even about genetic research. Articles of interest in the publication: "Its a wise child" (The conquest and its riddles) by István Riba, "The Ethnogenesis of Hungarians and Archaeogenetics" (An interview with Csanád Bálint, director of the Archaeological institute, Hungarian Academy of Sciences.) and finally: "Lessons of genomic research" by Nándor Dreisziger.
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Tamas
Är
It's just me and my favourite horsie :)
Posts: 18
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Post by Tamas on Jan 3, 2011 19:08:23 GMT 3
Greetings ! I'm new here. My name is Thomas. I registered here because I saw there is a magyar topic here. If anybody has questions about the hungarians and their history, then maybe I'll be able to help. Though sometimes I don't agree with our scholars, but mostly. BTW, madzsar tribe in Kazakstan with hungarian aid built an islamist temple and named "Majar baba" - meaning hungarian father. Also there were a Kurultai in Hungary, to the event elders were invited from kazakstani majars, and other nations as well, and I happen to know that the ambassador of Kazakstan was invited and was there also. Finally, here are some pics about the "reconstructed" (by pencil ) hungarian dress from the X. cent. (ad.) Female: www.tankonyvtar.hu/site/img/historia/1993_93-01_02_Vaczy1_original.jpgMale: www.tankonyvtar.hu/site/img/historia/1993_93-01_02_Vaczy2_original.jpg
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 3, 2011 22:26:20 GMT 3
Hi Thomas, welcome aboard
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Tamas
Är
It's just me and my favourite horsie :)
Posts: 18
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Post by Tamas on Jan 4, 2011 23:10:35 GMT 3
Greetings people ! Maybe it is not the best way to describe the history without legends based on true stories of history. This day I wanna tell you a myth I learned in my childhood - including with some scientifically strenghtened facts. When the Hungarians wandered the steppes, one day "Árpád vezér" found out that the lands once inhabited by Attila - whose direct descendant he was - is rich and fertile. That the best river is the Danube, and best land there is nowhere else in the whole world. So to investigate this intelligence information is real, they sent out scouts, namely Kushid and Botond, to take a glance on the land and to take a look what kind of people live there. When Kushid and Botond was reached just the middle of Hungary, they saw the landscape is nice, around the soil is rich, fertile and grassy, and the water is good, this really took their fancy. All after this happened, they went to the lord of the country who was in charge, namely Svatopluk. Kushid greeted him in the name of his (Kushid's) nation, and handed over the gifts they bought to the lord. The gifts were a very fine white horse, a golden saddle and golden halter. When Svatopluk asked what they need in return, they only asked for a flask of water, a handful of soil and some grass from the fileds. When Svatopluk heard all this he laughed, and was very happy to make such a bargain for such a good horse and expensive things. Then Kushid filled his flask with water from the river, put a bunch of ryegrass in his goatskin, then took clots from the black earth and dirt, and he returned to his own (people). All after he told what he saw and heard, and showed the water, soil and grass he brought, everyone recognized that the earth is good, the grass is fat, and the water is sweet. All after that Kushid and Botond were sent back (to Svatopluk). Meantime, Árpád vezér with the seven vezérs came to the Carpathian-basin. And the emissaries told to Svatopluk: "Árpád and his gallants tell you now, that on the soil, what they bought from you, do not stay anymore. Your land for the horse, your grass for the halter, and your water on the saddle we have bought, and due your poverty and greediness, you handed over the land, water and grass (to us)." When the lord heard the message, so replied: "That horse to be slain with a club, the halter to be thrown to the fileds, the golden saddle to be sunk in the waves of the Danube." On this the emissaries replied: "If you bash the horse, let our dogs eat it; if you put the halter on the fileds, let our shepards find it; and if the saddle is thrown to the river, let our fishermen pull it ashore with their nets." When the lord heard all this, he quickly gathered his army, and asked help from his allies, he did not take it a joke. After uniting the forces, he led them against the majars. Meantime, the majars reached the shores of the Danube, and next on a beautiful field they started the battle. As the battle raged, and the lord of the bulgars saw the majars are to win, he ran away. They chased the lord to the shores, where he jumped with his horse into the waves, and he was drown there. The end. In some cases, the name is Men Maroth who died there in the battle, Svatopluk's father. The whole thing of obtaining land rightfully this way is described by persian contemporaries precisely based on horse-herder nomadic traditions. Further, it is unclear if Svatopluk was (proto-)bulgar or moravian, but slavonization began so early in the case so it does not really count. As far as it goes, it is clear after the hun dominion ends, scholars and contemporaries say utrigurs and kutrigurs are the descendants and remnants of the huns, and this slavonization would have well started in the hun times. This could make some weak explaination on some slavic loanwords into hun, like the only source stating a few words like medos, kamon/kamos and strava. It is important to say, however, slavs are not the descendants of the huns. In fact in modern day Bulgaria the common people hate even the word "türk" due to the longevity and hospitality of the ottoman occupation in their history.
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Tamas
Är
It's just me and my favourite horsie :)
Posts: 18
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Post by Tamas on Jan 4, 2011 23:53:38 GMT 3
Some other thoughts on the issue: Firstly, Hungarian has so many loanwords from a lir-türk language (probably from a chuvash branch) what is alone enough to proof of cohabitation. Secondly, DNA-tests on grave findings showed no real population differences in the X. century between the conquering hungarians and the bolgars. More precisely the seventh century avars and the tenth century hungarians. What is also odd the two nations wandered along the steppe next to each other and new one another fairly well, both enemies and allies alike. Thirdly, as Árpád conquers the Carpathia-basin, there is no evidence of mass migration of the complete population towards the bulgarian route. Also, the mass of grave findings are no extreme in numbers but can be described as common like other previous century's graves. Unlike the hun invasion or the hun rule's end and longobards invading Pannonia and then the avar conquest which leads to massacre and destruction of masses. Basing on historical evidences, only a part of the population migrated, between 10-30 thousand people or so. Taking in fact the avars were overthrown by the proto-bulgars living among them, all the things tend to show the trendline avars in fact were fighting against the bulgarians and remained in the basin after the hungarian conquest, and in fact moravians, who were the allies of the proto-bulgars were forced to leave the upper northern region of the Carpathian-basin. Also, the first turkic runescript writing finding after the hungarian conquest is in turkic language (X. cent.), found in Homokmégy-halom (a piece of quiver ending bone), saying "to my kaan" - points towards the above way of thinking. Also, avars are the same as ruanruan (or rouran) people, a successor of the xiongnu. Also, another important note on hungarian (pre-)history is the bashkirs. Bashkort people were in fact in tribal-alliance with the majars a Julianus-friar finds them, from Volga Bolgaria to the west, near the Ural (Glass-mountains or "Üveghegyek" in hungarian). In fact they were resisting the mongol horde with success for a time, but later they were defeated and were either dispersed, assimilated or relocated somewhere (in Kazakstan) as the new, mongolian rulers reshared the obtained lands. A little intermezzo: there is no strict evidence, but the islamist majar tribe in kazakstan is considered as one of the small tribes, which are of foreign descendant. Further DNA analysis may (or may not) show the genetical and time distance between modern day magyars and majars. Continuing the mainstream thought, baskirs are a key to understand hungarian history, due they show up just the same time as hungarians on the steppe. Based on horse-bone inspections their horses were used in the steppe region from the VII. century, and based a major "export commodity", what is in correlation with majars, russ, besenyő, kangar (later cumans), volga bolgar and kazar nations, not mentioning the least. It is a debate what language baskort was, though it is clear they adopted the kipchak-cuman as the "lingua franca" of the times of Temüjin and the Golden horde also, and later their language was also formed by the tatars. May I suggest baskort was a chuvash language spoken by bashkirs before the XI. century, I don't know. What I can surely tell bashkirs were not and are not kipchaks, like cumans. All the above explains me the "real huns", which all the people here debating were an admixture of bolgars, avars, hungarians and baskirs, and probably some less considered nations like pechenegs, Udmurts and so on; all in a tribal-alliance. If Istemi wants so.
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Tamas
Är
It's just me and my favourite horsie :)
Posts: 18
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Post by Tamas on Jan 4, 2011 23:57:58 GMT 3
Sorry, also one thing's been left out, on the migration of 10-30.000 proto-bulgars, this could interpret the complete and fast slavonization of the bulgarian nation of that time. What may happened is they conquered the slavs and then, assimilated to some part, if not the most.
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Post by hjernespiser on Jan 5, 2011 1:40:44 GMT 3
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Tamas
Är
It's just me and my favourite horsie :)
Posts: 18
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Post by Tamas on Jan 5, 2011 10:55:10 GMT 3
Okay.
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Post by benzin on Jun 15, 2011 11:45:38 GMT 3
Did you hear about the family dna project (accessible at http://www.familytreedna.com) ? Its a civil research to collect as many y dna sample as possible from around the world. The hungarian project has more than 200 samples now, its getting enough to be scientifically researchable. The ones who have germanic, jewish or slavic family names are asked to join specific projects, so its closer to the original mixture of the population than any other dna project ever made in hungary.
here are the results with some comments by the authors of the whole project :
The haplogroup breakdown (N=203) : 24% R1a1 Haplogroup R1a1 most likely originated around 4000 BC on the Steppe, most likely somewhere between present-day Kazakhstan and Ukraine. From there, it expanded quickly in all direction, spreading now from Scandinavia to South India and from the Balkans to Mongolia. It makes up a significant part of Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Finno-Ugric and Turkic speakers. It can be divided into several subgroups based on the work of Peter Gwozdz and Larry Majka (“Polish school”):
19,5% R1b1b2 Haplogroup R1b1b2 originated around 4100 BC, most likely in Anatolia or Armenia. It is the most common haplogroup in Western and Central Europe. It can be divided into several subgroups based on SNP testing, thus for R1b1b2 people, ordering a deep clade R test is crucial. R1b1b2a (L23+ L51- L11-): this group is called the Armenian Modal Haplotype and is most common in and around Armenia, but can be seen in significant numbers all-over the Middle East (including Jews) and Greece. It is rare in Central Europe and almost absent from Western Europe. It has high frequency in Bashkiria, so Steppe Magyars may have contained this haplotype to some extent.
13% I2a2 The Eastern European branch of this haplogroup has a common ancestor around 500 BC, who most likely lived in Southern Poland or Western Ukraine. I2a2 then expanded during the Slavic migration period beginning from the 6th century AD. Most of them likely settled in the Carpathian Basin during the Avar period, where they were used by Avars for border guard duties (especially in Croatia and Bosnia) as well as for farming. Another part of them arrived later in the Middle Ages and assimilated to the Hungarians.
10% I1 This haplogroup has a common ancestor around 1500 BC and likely expanded during Nordic Bronze Age. We have a good reason to assume that every I1 man has some kind of a Germanic origin and lived in the Scandinavia/Baltic Sea area. However, we can't be sure if a certain I1 line in the Carpoathian Basin is of early Germanic (Goth, Gepid, Langobard) or of late Germanic settler (Saxon, Rhineland, Swabian, Austrian) origin.
8% E1b1b1 This ethnic group was born in the Balkans around 1700 BC and spread out from there with the Indo-European conquest, forming the Illyro-Thracian branch together with haplogroup J2b2. In the Carpathian Basin, most of them were conquered and Romanized by the Romans, but part of them retained their identity giving birth to the Albanian nation. The Illyrians (or Pannonians) in the Carpathian Basin were assimilated by later coming ethnic groups (Celts, Romans, Germans etc.) and finally to Magyars. The most likely scenario is that E-V13 men were already in the Carpathian Basin before the Hun-Avar-Magyar conquest.
8% G2a This group has a common ancestor around 7000 BC, and it arrived into Europe with the first Neolithic farmers (one G2a3 sample was found in a German Neolithic grave from 5000 BC). Its subgroups are the following: G2a1 (P16+): Most common among Ossetians and Northwest Caucasians. May have a Kabar or a Yassic connection.
8% J2 This group has a common ancestor around 12000 BP in the Fertile Crescent, it was the main Neolithic group of the Middle East together with R1b*. This group is very diverse in Hungary, we have found the following subgroups so far: J2a* (M410*), J2a4* (L26*), J2a4a (M47), J2a4b (M67) J2a4d (M319) and J2a4h (L24). The J2a4b1 (M92+) subgroup is quite young in the Carpathian Basin, having a single ancestor around 400 AD, and likely represents a yet undefined tribe.
3,5% N Haplogroup N most likely appeared somewhere in China around 7000 BC, and migrated to the West with Paleolithic hunters. Its subgroups: N1*: East Asian group, it is very scarce West of China, in Europe it is most likely connected to Huns.
3% Q This group has its origins in the Altay mountains, from where they populated the Americas. Over 90% of the Native American lineages belong to this group, especially its M3+ subgroup. This group arrived to the Carpathian Basin most likely with the Huns or Avars, just like its brother clade Q1a2.
1,5% I2b1 This group has a common ancestor around 2600 BC and its likely place of origin is North Germany. In Hungary, they are most likely connected to German settlers, however a very early arrival (Corded Ware) of the line is not impossible.
1% T Haplogroup T originated around 8300 BC, most likely in the Fertile Crescent. It likely spread with farming especially in coastal areas so this group is likely a seafarer. It is found all-over the coast of the Indian Ocean and the Mediterranean. It likely arrived to the Carpathian Basin with neolithic farmers.
0,5% C Presumably came to Hungary during the Mongolian invasion but a Xiongnu-Hun or Avar origin is also possible.
0,5% L This group has its origins in Pakistan around 7000 BC, the advent of farming in that area (Mergarh). L people likely formed the Indus Valley civilization, too. It is found in small numbers in Central Asia and the Middle East. The L2a group has a common ancestor in Roman times, so I assume our Magyar L line came into the Carpathian Basin during Roman times from the Near East.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 15, 2011 18:05:51 GMT 3
Interesting, thanx. I had always been curious (and ignorant) regarding these genetic issues.
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