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Post by Subu'atai on Jun 28, 2008 11:04:22 GMT 3
Former nomads still uphold nomadic culture to a very high degree, historically and culturally. Hell even genetically to some degree - at least for my family all my parents did not wish to marry anyone except one with nomadic blood lol ;D
I can be considered sedentary as I live in a sedentary nation, however - my lifestyle and ability to adopt it is unlike other cultures which seems have problems with nomadism
Ne ways I don't see any similarities at all with Chinese language, ancestrial worship perhaps but I doubt they adopted it from us nor vice versa. Family values is important in all cultures, some trample on it more then others though thats true.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 28, 2008 15:46:27 GMT 3
As nomadic people I doubt it is fair to say the Pontics was the only place Attila's huns re-migrated to. It is true that a small group of them must have remained in Pannonia, as the Szekely people proove, but the majority went back to the Pontic Steppe as our sources describe. All Kings of Hungary considered themselves descendants of Attila, whether that's true or not is difficult to find out. That sounds a bit of a legend, you know. A big legend actually  However I do know that the Altai ancestry is there and the proof is in many of their faces. Of course the Magyars heavily mixed with Turkics (not Altaics - which other Altaics other than Turkics did they mix?). No one can deny that. I just don't like it when they deny the Turkicness of the Huns and claim that the Magyars are the same thing with the Huns. That is BS. Mongols didn't have much cultural influence over Hungary sure - what could have been changed? Whether Altaic or Ugric or Ugric mixed with Altaic, the Hungarians were nomads. However the short stay seemed to be enough for Hungarians to share our direct genetic link (Some of my gf's relatives themselves looked even more Mongolic then her). That is because of heavily mixing with the Oghurs, plus some Qypchaq influences, though the Qypchaqs, especially after settling in "Small Cumania" in Hungary, did not mix with the Hungarians much. If the On Oghurs and Oghurs were the same people (if I have not misunderstood). Doesn't that give some connection at least between some Hungarian peoples and Attila? This is almost like some aspect of the Chinese peoples having a Southern Xiong Nu connection. The Oghur peoples were united under the name "Bulghar" by the descendents of Attila. However, this "Greater Bulgaria" did not survive long and soon divided into several parts, led by the Oghur tribal groups that had formed it. The On Oghurs were one of these, who instead of migrating to the Balkans, went northeastwards and established Volga Bulgaria. The Magyars came to the region at a much later time - several centuries later, to be exact. Plus, the On Oghurs were probably the most different people among other Oghurs that had formed Greater Bulgaria - the Bulghars are usually associated with the Otur Oghur (Utrigur, Thirty Tribes) and Toqur Oghur (Kutrigur, Nine Tribes), rather than the On Oghur (Ten Tribes). It is however known that the On Oghurs were a member of Greater Bulgarian Union. So, the Huns were already a small people when they joined the Oghurs, so guess how much percentage of Hunnicness passed to the On Oghurs, and how much percentage of it eventually passed to the Magyars? We have a saying in Turkish: "Tavuğun suyunun suyu" (The cooked water of the cooked water of chicken) Oh and there is this puzzling Magyar-Bashqurt relationship, which is very mysterious. |
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Post by Temüjin on Jun 28, 2008 16:04:02 GMT 3
Oh and there is this puzzling Magyar-Bashqurt relationship, which is very mysterious. please tell me more about this. |
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Post by Subu'atai on Jun 28, 2008 16:36:40 GMT 3
Mongols for one - either then my first gf, I've also met quite a few Hungarians whose claims their ancestry as a Mongol/Magyar mix - and they did possess Mongolic features. There was something interesting they said that made me believe it (it's hard to believe as Mongols left the region about 800 years ago) - something to do with their surnames. Trying to recall now but I got a mental block  Ne ways though yes it is possible that the direct Mongol link isn't there but the illusion could have been made by mixing with Turkic nomads especially the Kipchaks making them more like us genetically while having influences via linguistics. I have to meet up with them again to find out more info. This is quite puzzling. Hungarians denying the Turkicness of the Huns? Really? I've never met one with that mentality. Though I can't deny that many inaccurate paintings of Attila were drawn in Hungary despicting him as European. Like seriously - I don't agree with that. They are a very puzzling people indeed. I doubt any of my Hungarian mates would agree with what you're saying though Qaqhan lol ;D The "I am descendant from the Altai!" mentality is kinda passed down from generation to generation for the last... hmmm, millenia? Heh |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 1, 2008 1:52:48 GMT 3
Medieval Islamic and Mongol sources usually called Magyars Bashqurts and Bashqurts Magyars, identifiying the two peoples as the same. European emissaries who went to the Mongol court wrote that the Bashqurts spoke a language very similar to the ones spoken by Magyars. There was probably an interaction or very old union between the two peoples, so that it survived into the 13th century. Sounds more like Qypchaq influence to me And those who trace their origins to Mongols probably meant the Tatars, who were Qypchaqs ruled by Mongols Well I met and argued with so many that it totlly influenced on my view towards the Hungarians ;D Especially among Hungarian Turanists  |
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Post by Subu'atai on Jul 1, 2008 2:23:57 GMT 3
Heh they are stubborn - reasons simply because they have been taught that for generations. Though to be honest I'm as skeptical about this as the Korean/Japanese Turanid link.
However, I can't deny the hearts of some Hungarians - they are nomad, not European.
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Post by sarmat on Jul 1, 2008 6:03:08 GMT 3
According to Gumilev Huns of Attila were Xiongnu that underwent intermixing with Finno-Ugrian tribes.
Also Szekely people are believed to be Hungarians as well.
So, there actually is some base under Hungarian claims on Attlila's heritage.
About Hungarian-Bashkir connection. Hungarian monks in the 13th century clearly write that Bashkirs were Hungarians and spoke Hungarian language. They even invited them to move to Hungary.
However, after the Mongol conquest Bashkirs were complitely Turkicized.
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Post by Temüjin on Jul 1, 2008 17:32:53 GMT 3
that's intersting!  |
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Jul 1, 2008 20:36:15 GMT 3
what does this mean? nomad not European?!
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Post by hjernespiser on Nov 21, 2008 21:43:43 GMT 3
Are there no other Hungarians on this board? Quite a few misunderstandings here. I hope to correct them later.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 21, 2008 22:11:26 GMT 3
There used to be, but they don't login anymore.
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Post by hjernespiser on Nov 21, 2008 22:24:03 GMT 3
What you think about Hungarians nowadays? I believe that many of them are germanic or slavic origin. Genetic researches showed that Csangos and Székelys (Magyar-related tribes in Transsylvania) have strong genetical-connections to Finnics and Northern-Turkics, but Hungarians are mainly genetically european. When I approach topics of ethnic group origin, I try to make clear distinctions between genetics, culture, and language because each person inherits these different things in differing ways. The emerging field of forensic genetics offers exciting glimpses into the genetic history of humanity. Unfortunately it is also highly misunderstood because it is so new. Most studies look only at both direct paternal (Y-chromosome) and direct maternal (mtDNA) lines and some people tend to extend the conclusions that can be drawn from these studies too far. For example, if a Cuman mother had a son with a Hungarian father and that Cuman-Hungarian son went on to have a daughter with a Slovak mother, we could not really trace the "Hungarian-ness" and "Cuman-ness" of that Cuman-Hungarian-Slovak daughter. Studies being done more recently on autosomnal DNA are starting to see more refined divisions between ethnic groups though and will be providing clearer pictures. For example, this: dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/11/european-population-structure-with-300k.html Over 54% of the Hungarian samples in this study were guessed at as being "Hungarian" while 22% of Hungarian samples were guessed at as being "Slovak", 16% as Czech, and only 0.003% as German. I really like the Dienekes' blog for these anthropology questions. I suggest it to anyone here interested in what's going on in the genetic history world. One thing to note is that Csango/Szekely and other Hungarians are still closer to each other than Csango/Szekely are to other "Finnics/North Turkics". Here's one of the latest studies on Hungarian Y-chromosomes: dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/04/y-chromosomes-of-hungarians.html |
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Post by hjernespiser on Nov 22, 2008 2:17:59 GMT 3
H. Ihsan Erkoc:
"The main question is that did Germanics and Slavs lived in Pannonia before and after the Magyars migrated to the region?"
- The short answer is "probably". See below about the Puszta though...
Verinen Paroni:
"I believe that in Pusta there are more original Magyars than in those great cities.
- If you go to the Puszta for "more original Magyars" you're actually looking in the exact opposite place that you should be. People remaining in the Puszta tended to be wiped out by numerous invasions. There's no protection from invaders in the Puszta. It is one of the reasons subsequent settlers such as the Cumans and Jasz were offered land in the Puszta. No one else wanted it! I should be clear. The Puszta lands in Hungary are not large enough to support the kind of nomadism seen further east and is one of the economic reasons for "settlement". After the Ottomans invaded and depopulated most of the Puszta, it became a place for brigands. The Hapsburgs then populated the Puszta with many Swabians and others.
Subu'atai:
"Ne ways my gf in particular believes that European "sciences" are trying to destroy their people's heritage, identity, and nomadic history.
All Kings of Hungary considered themselves descendants of Attila, whether that's true or not is difficult to find out."
- The attitude about European sciences destroying people's heritage probably comes from the Hungarian reaction to the Hapsburgs trying to use science as a political tool. The Swedes did it to the Finns too. Actually many people don't like science for this reason. Native American groups have become somewhat resistant to genetic scientists trying to study the genetic history of Native Americans because the results are in direct contradiction to the origin beliefs of these people.
- All descedants of Arpad considered themeslves descendants of Attila for political reasons.
H. Ihsan Erkoc:
"Oh and there is this puzzling Magyar-Bashqurt relationship, which is very mysterious."
- Not all Magyars migrated to Hungary. Some stayed behind and this was still remembered by the Hungarians who sent missionaries east to try to find the other Magyars, invite them to Hungary, and convert them. Some were found east of Volga Bulgaria where they were called Bashkort. They were absorbed by the Golden Horde. Some actively fought with the Horde against the Bulgars. To confuse things though, the modern Bashkort are not related. Some earlier researchers tried to find the Bashkort as assimilated Magyars but the results were somewhat overturned. It is still possible for some Bashkort tribes to be related. I think the jury is still out on this one.
Subu'atai:
"Hungarians denying the Turkicness of the Huns? Really? I've never met one with that mentality."
- Yes, really! Some of the more fanatic nationalists believe the Huns were a related Magyar group. Ever heard of the Isfahani Codex? It is supposedly an Armenian document transcribing Hunnic words in the manner of the Codex Cumanicus. Many of the words are clearly Magyar-inspired. Conveniently the Codex "disappeared"! Teehee.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 22, 2008 3:34:18 GMT 3
Never heard of that Isfahani codex  |
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Post by hjernespiser on Nov 22, 2008 3:52:10 GMT 3
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