Hungarians

[laudatortemporisac]

Here are some face reconstruction photos from Hungary:
www.translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhmus.hu%2F%7Ekustar%2Fkuag-keszrek.html&sl=hu&tl=en

[Subu'atai]

Apr 29, 2009 1:09:06 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

I don't care if their own little cute imaginary world is destroyed or not, I simply don't like it when people claim over somebody else's stuff.

This is difficult, their "little cute world" is passionately fought for. There has to be a motive behind this. I doubt I'll be confronting my ex with this however, as even though she's a woman, she's a well-trained kickboxer both in training and on the street; she's quite deadly and would simply not hesitate if I insult her people.

Nonetheless, this patriotism and mentality (although it's true she was raised by Bikers after her parents abandoned her for Heroin), seems almost steppe-like. But of course, this is a historical forum, not one for personal views.

[laudatortemporisac]

I cant read this texts, understand only pictures
I'm quite envious to their voyage

www.elim.kz/forum/index.php?showtopic=2701&st=40

[hjernespiser]

I love their costumes! YAY!

[hjernespiser]

Here's their website: goldenman.eu

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Very interesting And cool

[Asparuh]

Hello again !
I would like to post some pictures of Hungarians.

One of the pictures is of Nimrud-legendary magyar leader as i know.The other two are of some ancient warriors.
Hope you like it !
Bye !

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Nice pictures

[MagyarTanhu]

Aug 29, 2009 13:01:02 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

Nice pictures

Dear smart, all knowing, wise Osman, Seljuk Turk, H. Ihsan Erkoc,

I am irritated about your writings as you so confidently claim that Hungarians have no relations to Huns. As you so harshly and respectless claim Attila for Osman and Gok-turk relation what I think is BS. As Osman, do you have any myths, legends relating to Hun relations? Do you have similar legends and totemic animals as other Central Asian – Real Turk nations? Is your music and song similar to any of the steppic nations Is your spiritual attitude and development same to steppic nations?

Dear Central-Asian far relative brothers,

Please do not sit up on the “expertise” I really need to discipline myself to not write about him “nice” things as he so “nicely and politely” is spitting on on our identity and national feeling. I am a Hungarian, Magyar and did not start to dig in the ancient history quest just recently. I would be very much curios about his ethnical background as modern Turk, whether he is belonging to the really small percentage of current Turkish Turks who have something common with the ancient Turks – thus partially the Huns as well. I look at the most of the current Turks as Osmans, Seljuks – something like one of the most mixed nationality of the world – having little common with the ancient Turks, steppic nomadic nations. I think current Turks are like more closely standing to Valachians – thus Romanian people and mixture of Byzantine, Minor Asian, and who knows what kind of blendage people – just look at them. Sorry, respect to normal Turks but really got pissed off as he rudely without any shame is spreading that Hungarians do not have anything common with the Huns.

I do not like his approach – smells like chauvinistic, cultural superiority of Seljuks-Osmans-Ottomans who might think they achieved the highest level of development and achievement among all the Turkish nations and are destined to lead all poor minor brothers. And of course they threat Hungarians as if they were rubbish. Very irritating.

I apologize again for all the just Turks who are not like this and sorry if hurt some of those who have good intentions. But this guy has crossed the border threshold with all his writings and “pseudo-expertise.”

I am very much aware that the current genetical results show that present Hungarians are mostly similar to other Central European people and have no relations to Asian groups except of the 5% of them to whom is still possible to show genetical relation to Central and Far Eastern Asian population. I did not made any DNA testing yet but as from my appearance and also mom’s appearance I might guess to have this linkage too – so hoping to belong this 5 %.

I feel close Central Asian nations – like Kazakhs, Uyghurs, Bashkirs and other Russian minorities, than Kyrgizes, Tajiks, Turkmens and so. I also feel close a bit lesser extent Mongols, Northern-Chinese, Siberians and Afghans and Pakistanis and North Indians too. Why Afghans and Pakistanis and North Indians? Just look at Scythian-White Hun(Hephtalite) and Iranian origin.

I also feel a bit link to Caucasus – as there were part of Hungarians destining, called “Szavárd or Szovárd Magyars“ Supposedly even there was a Minor Hungarian kingdom near the river of Kuma or Cuma (Country of Gyeretyan or Jeretany) – that is somewhere in current Azerbaijan or Dagestan – Chechen territory, and if I look some of the current Caucasian population, like Avars and Jazygs aka Alans – they are present in current Hungarian populations.

However I do not dare to completely exclude the Ugrian – Finnian relations too – there are certainly linkages – as for the base of grammar structure and some words still in use – but it is probably overemphasized – the truth may be between the two arguing side – whether of Ugro-Finnic or Ancient Turkic or Hunnic origin.

Please look at the collection of some words below that might prove a bit that yes, Hungarians really could have relation to Huns:


I post it in Powerpoint format - was a lot of work with that ...

I am sure professional linguist would find mistakes in it – but at least if I were right with some words I would be satisfied. Now, tell me dear Osman boy, how much “Modern Turkish” words you have at least similar to some Chinese words? How is it possible that some Hungarian words like in the case of rat and swan and cat are more close to Uyghur language than Turkish to Uyghur? Ok, maybe 80% of Uyghur is close to you but what about those words? How is it possible that some words are identical in Hungarian with the Hindi? All just accidently? Yes, from Sanskrit most of the Indo-European languages merit but …
[/img]

Please be so kind and control yourself what you write … Do not be ignorant and arrogant… It will not pay out for you in later life…
Language comparision.ppt[/img][/img]

Attachments:

[MagyarTanhu]

Here is the table :

[hjernespiser]

Even Hungarian scholars agree that any possible relation with Attila is through Arpad's royal house and does not extend to the general populace. It comes from careful reading of the Hungarian chronicles, which are stories about the royal house.

[MagyarTanhu]

Mar 5, 2010 7:48:58 GMT 3 hjernespiser said:

Even Hungarian scholars agree that any possible relation with Attila is through Arpad's royal house and does not extend to the general populace. It comes from careful reading of the Hungarian chronicles, which are stories about the royal house.

Not a satisfactory answer. Some extracts from those chronicles I was reading as a child - so it were the between the very first information I was seeking about ancient history.

You are right at the point that from the period of Hungarian Conquest (officially the 9th century) from the archeological excavation of graves - related to leaders - only their DNA sample contained Far Eastern Asian markers - while the common folks sample were mostly Western Euro Asian.

But from this fact you cannot conclude that only they were related to the Huns. How do you define Hun? It is not a single nation but was a large confederation of nations consisting from at least 24-26 tribes from Yenitsei till the legs of Southern Ural mountains.

So even when Tibetians proclaim about themselves they were part of that you cannot exclude them ...

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Dear magyartanhu,

Dear smart, all knowing, wise Osman, Seljuk Turk, H. Ihsan Erkoc,

I am not Ottoman nor Seljukid, I am an Oghuz Turk. "Ottoman" and "Seljuk" are political terms, not ethnic.

I am irritated about your writings as you so confidently claim that Hungarians have no relations to Huns.

I know that my thoughts are irritating to Hungarian nationalists You are not the first one to say that.

As you so harshly and respectless claim Attila for Osman and Gok-turk relation what I think is BS.

I don't remember saying anything like that. On the contrary, Attila has nothing to do with the Ottomans, except being Turkic. The Huns, Gokturks and Oghuz are all three different peoples, they are not the same (Turkish nationalists think this way, but I disagree with them as well).

As Osman, do you have any myths, legends relating to Hun relations?

We are not "Osmans"; the Ottomans were a Turkmen dynasty that ruled over the Oghuz-Turkmens of Anatolia.

Anatolian Turks don't have a direct myth or legend about the Huns, because they did not live in Central Europe where the memory of Huns wasn't forgotten. We also don't have myths or legends about the Asian Huns because they lived too far back away. But many scholars suggest that the legendary Oghuz Qaghan of the Oghuz Turks have some motiffs from the Asian Hun period as well, specifically from Modu Chanyu.

Do you have similar legends and totemic animals as other Central Asian – Real Turk nations?

Yes. Bahaeddin Ögel, Faruk Sümer and Yaşar Kalafat have gathered enormous information regarding this matter.

Is your music and song similar to any of the steppic nations Is your spiritual attitude and development same to steppic nations?

Yes, it is, especially among the folk culture. I guess your image of Anatolian Turks is limited only to the Ottoman court in Istanbul. The folk culture of ordinary Turks was very different from that, and it is much more closer to Central Asian Turks.

Please do not sit up on the “expertise” I really need to discipline myself to not write about him “nice” things as he so “nicely and politely” is spitting on on our identity and national feeling. I am a Hungarian, Magyar and did not start to dig in the ancient history quest just recently.

As a historian, I don't like it when a people claims over somebody else's heritage. I don't like it when Hungarians claim they are the direct descendents of Huns, I don't like it when Mongols claim that the Asian Huns and Gokturks were Mongolic, I don't like it when Turks claim that Magyars and Mongols or Genghis Khan were purely Turkic. I actually argue with blind-nationalist Turks more than I argue with Bulgarians, Magyars, Mongolians or other peoples.

I would be very much curios about his ethnical background as modern Turk, whether he is belonging to the really small percentage of current Turkish Turks who have something common with the ancient Turks – thus partially the Huns as well. I look at the most of the current Turks as Osmans, Seljuks – something like one of the most mixed nationality of the world – having little common with the ancient Turks, steppic nomadic nations. I think current Turks are like more closely standing to Valachians – thus Romanian people and mixture of Byzantine, Minor Asian, and who knows what kind of blendage people – just look at them. Sorry, respect to normal Turks but really got pissed off as he rudely without any shame is spreading that Hungarians do not have anything common with the Huns.

Actually I am really a Turkic, from the Karakeçili (Qarakečili) clan of the Kayı (Qayï) tribe of the Oghuz (Oğuz/Oġuz) Turks By the way, yes the Anatolian Turks are quite a mixed people, but other Turkic peoples outside Turkey are quite mixed as well - with the Finno-Ugrian, Slavic, Iranic, Mongolic and Tungusic peoples.

I do not like his approach – smells like chauvinistic, cultural superiority of Seljuks-Osmans-Ottomans who might think they achieved the highest level of development and achievement among all the Turkish nations and are destined to lead all poor minor brothers. And of course they threat Hungarians as if they were rubbish. Very irritating.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I never thought, never think and never will think in this way.

Now, tell me dear Osman boy, how much “Modern Turkish” words you have at least similar to some Chinese words? How is it possible that some Hungarian words like in the case of rat and swan and cat are more close to Uyghur language than Turkish to Uyghur? Ok, maybe 80% of Uyghur is close to you but what about those words? How is it possible that some words are identical in Hungarian with the Hindi? All just accidently? Yes, from Sanskrit most of the Indo-European languages merit but …

First of all, I am not an "Osman boy" and I got nothing to do with the Ottoman dynasty, I actually don't like the Ottoman Empire at all. As for the language, if you look at the Istanbul dialect of Anatolian Turkish, which is the official language of Turkey, it might look somewhat far to the Central Asian Turkic languages/dialects. However, as I pointed above, Istanbul and the countryside were and still are worlds apart from each other. Local dialects in Turkey have preserved a lot more percentage of Old Turkic vocabulary and in fact, Turkish lingual experts say that some Old Turkic grammar structures that haven't survived in modern Central Asian Turkic languages have survived only in Anatolian Turkish. After the establishment of the republic in 1923, Atatürk ordered the preparation of two massive Anatolian Turkish dictionaries, one for the written Old Anatolian-Ottoman Turkish (this dictionary's title is Tarama Sözlüğü) and one for the spoken local dialects (Derleme Sözlüğü). If you want to make comments about Anatolian Turkish, you first have to read all the volumes of these dictionaries, check the various old and modern Turkic dictionaries (they are available in Russian, German, Turkish and English; a few examples would be those of Wilhelm Radloff, Gerhard Doerfer, Annemarie von Gabain, Ahmet Caferoğlu and Sir Gerard Clauson) and make comments later And this is actually a very massive work, something only real linguists can do.

Oh btw, you asked how come Turkish and Uyghur words for swan and rat are different. Actually they are not different. Anatolian Turkish sıçan is sıçgan in Chaghatai/Uzbek while Uyghur Chasqan looks like a form where the consonants have switched places (this is common in Turkic languages); in Anatolian and Azeri Turkic, the -ġ/-g particle in the suffixes found in Eastern Turkic is dropped. Uyghur Aq Qu's Qu is the same word with Turkish Kuğu; in the Uyghur word, the -ġu part seems to have been dropped (as for the first part of the word, Aq, that means "White" in all Turkic languages, and that is the adjective of the bird - in Anatolian Turkish, white swan is Akkuğu).

Regards.

[MagyarTanhu]

Dear Ihsan,

Quite a correct answer from you. I have learned some things from it.

But must comment some of your comments - I am not nationalist - extremist. Although larger in number now, specially in Hungary but I do not belong to any extremist organization and neither desire to be part of. I just try to optimally and with objectivity know more about who I am and where I belong to. I am not sitting up extremist theories like sumerian heritage and so on. But please do not claim that Hungarians who claim that Huns could have relation to Hungarian history equal to nationalist-extremist.


I know that my thoughts are irritating to Hungarian nationalists You are not the first one to say that. by Ihsan




I do not say that Hungarians are the only and direct successors of Huns. But I cannot deny that 100%-ly is no relation of Huns to Hungarians. It is not so. After being in China half year and studying the language - and all the things I have read until my life and also met with some opinions - so all the experiences until my life say it is irresponsible to proclaim that Hungarians do not have any relation to Huns except of the Leader dynasty of Hungarian Conquerors. But the absolute truth is known for until know only by God.

As a historian, I don't like it when a people claims over somebody else's heritage. I don't like it when Hungarians claim they are the direct descendents of Huns, I don't like it when Mongols claim that the Asian Huns and Gokturks were Mongolic, I don't like it when Turks claim that Magyars and Mongols or Genghis Khan were purely Turkic. I actually argue with blind-nationalist Turks more than I argue with Bulgarians, Magyars, Mongolians or other peoples. by Ihsan

greetings with respect,

Tom

[hjernespiser]

The same "proofs" you use to complain about others saying there is no relation are the same for why you can't say there is a relation. We can't believe something is true until there is proof. You're trying to believe there is something true and then go looking for proof. What if proof was found that showed that Magyars were directly related to Avars? It would go against your belief of a relationship with Huns. Would you change your belief or would you think with an open mind? Look, before I knew anything, I used to think Magyars were Gypsies because of popular American cultural beliefs. Cultural beliefs certainly wasn't proof.