E.Turkestan Turks established...........Turkey

[2023travel2endless]

Around the year 1000 a.c., Kaya Alp, the head of Turkish speaking nomads of 24 families from what is today known as Xinjiang Province in China, migrated and arrived at the borders of the Byzantine borders among the Selçuks, at the time of the Roman dynasty of Constantinopole.

The Selçuks conquered the Bagdat kalifat in the middle of 11th century, and set their eyes at the conquest of the Byzantine Empire of the Middle East.

In contrary, this mission wasn't much of a conquest, as the they were seen as liberators of the peasants exploited under the Byzantine feudal system.

These peasants in return of tax, the Turks declare their freedom and offer them their protection when necessary.
In this way, Byzantium looses the biggest parts of Anatolia to the Turks.

The Selçuks are at the peak of their power at the beginning of 13th century, when sultan Aladdin in Konya promoted the grandson of....Kaya Alp called Ertugrul Gazi to commander of the bordering regions with Byzantium.

This region linked Bursa, Kutahya and Bilecik, with the aim was to protect the borders of the Empire.

During the life of Ertugrul there was the invasion of the Mongols over the Middle East, under the head of Koeblai Khan. (Note that Bagdat was already Turkish when Mongols invaded it).

This is when the Selçuk-dynasty disappears and Ertugrul Gazi takes the power as successful leader under the Turkish rulers and expand his authority at the cost of the Byzantine Empire.

When Ertugrul Gazi dies, his land expanded to 4800 km2.

He is buried in the West-Anatolian village Sogut, where up to now nomads come every year together to commemorate his death.

Osman, his youngest son, chosen as leader in 1299, gives his name to the Ottoman (Osman in Turkish) Dynasty which will later rule over 3 continents.

The dynasty lasted till the last sultan, the weak mehmet VI (Mehmet Vahdeddin) unexpectedly flew his Empire for Malta and Kemal Atatürk from Selanik rescued Anatolia


The Ottoman Empire was referred to as Turkey in the West, the sultan as the 'Grand Turk' and the state as the 'Sublime Port'.

The Ottoman sultans were the direct descendant of E.Turkistan Uyghurs.

[Deleted]

I know many Uygurs came over to help out and participate during the building of the Ottoman Empire and afterwards Turks. But where did you hear this from?

[2023travel2endless]

From a book written by Mohamed El-Fers (& Dr. Osman Yılmaz) called,'Mehmet VI, the latest sultan' p16 -> 18

[Deleted]

I have no problem with it, as long as I see proof to back it up. But you know that if you tell this to the average Anatolian Turk, a narrow minded nationalist extremist, that they'll never believe you and will probably try to kill you.

[Deleted]

Actually, I just htought about posting this information in a Turkish forum and see what they say about it, it'll be interesting but not surprising.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Hmm, weird indeed

First of all, the genealogy trees given at the beginning of Ottoman chronicles are legendary and they are not historical. The earliest Ottoman history books were written in the second half of the 15th century and much is unknown about the origins of the House of 'Osmân. It's even doubted by some scholars that 'Osmân was Ertughrul's son. There is no evidence to proove or disproove the stories about the origins of the Ottoman ruling family, because there are no direct written sources.

Kaya Alp, the head of Turkish speaking nomads of 24 families from what is today known as Xinjiang Province in China

The Oghuz did not live there. The original homeland of the Oghuz was the steppe north of Aral and Sir-daryâ.

During the life of Ertugrul there was the invasion of the Mongols over the Middle East, under the head of Koeblai Khan. (Note that Bagdat was already Turkish when Mongols invaded it).

Nope, Baghdâd was re-taken by the 'Abbâsid Caliphate after the Seljûqid Empire fell apart. The Mongols of Hülegü captured Baghdâd from the 'Abbâsids, not the Turks.

This is when the Selçuk-dynasty disappears and Ertugrul Gazi takes the power as successful leader under the Turkish rulers and expand his authority at the cost of the Byzantine Empire.

The Seljûqid Dynasty of Anatolia did not disappear until the year 1308.

When Ertugrul Gazi dies, his Empire expanded to 4800 km2.

Ertughrul Ghâzî's small border principality can not be called an empire. It's generally accepted that the Ottoman State became an empire during Sultān Mehmed II's reign.

The Ottoman sultans were the direct descendant of E.Turkistan Uyghurs.

That's not true.

[2023travel2endless]

feramez211 said:

I have no problem with it, as long as I see proof to back it up. But you know that if you tell this to the average Anatolian Turk, a narrow minded nationalist extremist, that they'll never believe you and will probably try to kill you.

Of course we need further confirmation.

But I'm quite surprised that you claim the average Anatolian Turk is a narrow minded nationalist extremist. Isn't it a harsh thing to say?

And what is so extraordinary about E.Turkistan ancestry of the Ottoman Dynasty that would infuriate Anatolian Turks?

[2023travel2endless]

First of all, the genealogy trees given at the beginning of Ottoman chronicles are legendary and they are not historical. The earliest Ottoman history books were written in the second half of the 15th century and much is unknown about the origins of the House of 'Osmân. It's even doubted by some scholars that 'Osmân was Ertughrul's son. There is no evidence to proove or disproove the stories about the origins of the Ottoman ruling family, because there are no direct written sources.

This is very possible, and I'm no authority on this, nor is the book I was reading and I listen closely to what you have to say.
But I can add an interesting detail regarding the legendary history, which is confirmed in the book.

At 8 years of age, shortly before circumcision, Mehmet Vahdeddin is assigned an eunuch educator. Like all Ottoman princes education starts with memorizing by heart the list of the most illustrious ancestors of the Ottoman line. The genealogy tree goes back to Noach which was fantasized in the 15th century.

To make the history more lyrical, 'Arabic' ancestry was added, but in reality, the author writes, Mehmet Vahdeddin descents directly from Kaya Alp, the head of a Turkish-speaking nomadic tribe of 24 families of today's Xinjiang.

While the legendary ancestry is confirmed as the official line, the author does make the difference of the legend and the real history.

It'd be interesting to know where he found this history, and perhaps it was dr. Osman Yılmaz who helped the biographer that told him this.

The Oghuz did not live there. The original homeland of the Oghuz was the steppe north of Aral and Sir-daryâ.

But it's far from a complete history. M. El-Fers the author does not touch on the origins of the Empire's population. I'm sure there could be other Turks who migrated to Anatolia and the Middle East, not just Kaya Kalp and his 24 families from E.Turkistan, which primarily designates the origins of the Ottoman dynasty, not the empire's population.

Nope, Baghdâd was re-taken by the 'Abbâsid Caliphate after the Seljûqid Empire fell apart. The Mongols of Hülegü captured Baghdâd from the 'Abbâsids, not the Turks.

Ok thanks for correcting.

The Seljûqid Dynasty of Anatolia did not disappear until the year 1308.

The author M. El-Fers writes that the Seljuqid Dynasty disappeared during the life of Ertuğrul Gazi, thus 13th century because of the Mongol invasion and Ertuğrul Gazi rises as a successful leader of his small Turkish dominators.

Ertughrul Ghâzî's small border principality can not be called an empire. It's generally accepted that the Ottoman State became an empire during Sultān Mehmed II's reign.

I'm sorry it's my misinterpretation. The book refers only to a 'land' not 'Empire'.

The Ottoman sultans were the direct descendant of E.Turkistan Uyghurs.

That's not true.[/quote]

I guess the question can remain open till history is retraced.
Or is it an imperative no for Eastern Turkistan origins of the Ottoman Dynasty?

[Deleted]

2023travel2endless said:

feramez211 said:

I have no problem with it, as long as I see proof to back it up. But you know that if you tell this to the average Anatolian Turk, a narrow minded nationalist extremist, that they'll never believe you and will probably try to kill you.

Yes of course. This book isn't the ultimate authority it's just secondary source.

However, I'm quite surprised that you say the average Anatolian Turk is a narrow minded nationalist extremist. Isn't it a hash thing to say?

And what is so extraordinary about E.Turkistan ancestry of the Ottoman Dynasty that would make infuriate Anatolian Turks?

It's harsh but it's true. Most Anatolian Turks are so nationalistic that they can't think straight. It doesn't bother me because either way the Ottoman Dynasty is Turk, we're one big family. But a lot of Anatolian Turks don't see it that way. They look at it as Turkish and not Turkish. It doesn't matter if it's Uygur, they won't see it like I do. All they'll see is that it's not Turkish, again with the nationalism.

[2023travel2endless]

I know Anatolians Turks as a proud, wise and patriotic people.
Not as mindless chauvinists. Türkiye has a strong identity and its own strength. It isn't a country of insecure chauvinists at all. I think your claim is not fair.

[Deleted]

I'm Turkish too I see this behavior among Anatolian Turks all the time. There are many proud, wise, patriotic Turks in Turkey. But there are too many who fit the description I've explained.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

It'd be interesting to know where he found this history, and perhaps it was dr. Osman Yýlmaz who helped the biographer that told him this.

It can be found in any Ottoman chronicle written after the early 15th century. The most important and one of the earliest is 'Âshïqpashazâde's Tevârîkh-i Âl-i 'Osmân.

The legend linking the Ottoman royal family with Oghuz Khan was probably created during the reign of Murâd II.

To make the history more lyrical, 'Arabic' ancestry was added, but in reality, the author writes, Mehmet Vahdeddin descents directly from Kaya Alp, the head of a Turkish-speaking nomadic tribe of 24 families of today's Xinjiang.

But it's far from a complete history. M. El-Fers the author does not touch on the origins of the Empire's population. I'm sure there could be other Turks who migrated to Anatolia and the Middle East, not just Kaya Kalp and his 24 families from E.Turkistan, which primarily designates the origins of the Ottoman dynasty, not the empire's population.

The thing is that, Qaya Alp was a legendary Oghuz warrior from the Legend of Oghuz Khan, and the "24 families" are the 24 tribes of the Oghuz Turks

The reason why the author mistakes the Oghuz with the Uyghurs is because the earliest known version of Oghuznâme was written with the Uyghur script in the 14th century. However, it belonged to the Oghuz people, not the Uyghurs. The Uyghurs themselves had other legends, like that of Bögü Khan, as described in the Uyghur Creation Myth.

The Oghuz did not have anything to do with Eastern Turkistan. They were just living too far away from there

The author M. El-Fers writes that the Seljuqid Dynasty disappeared during the life of Ertuðrul Gazi, thus 13th century because of the Mongol invasion and Ertuðrul Gazi rises as a successful leader of his small Turkish dominators.

After Sultān Ghïyâse'd-dîn III was defeated at the Battle of Kösedagh (1243), the Anatolian Seljûqid Sultanate became a vassal of the Mongol Empire (and after it's break up, the vassal of the Ilkhanid Mongol State, which was a vassal of the Great Khans at China). Following this, in the second half of the 13th century, Seljûqid centralised control over Anatolia got looser and looser every day. The Seljûqids had become the only sovereign Turkish state in Anatolia in the second half of the 12th century after bitter and long wars with other Türkmen principalities. However, during the Mongol Invasions, hordes of fleeing Türkmens migrated to Anatolia, which resulted in the beginning of the de-centralisation of the Seljûqid state, which was speeded up by the rebellion of Baba Iskhaq, and which got even faster after the Mongol Invasion. The newly arrived Türkmens settled in the western frontier zone neighboring the Roman (Byzantine) Empire and after flooding these regions, individual Türkmen tribal chieftains or Ghâzî warlords started establishing their own autonomous principalities. Among these, the Qaramanids, Germiyânids and Aydïnids were the most powerful in the beginning. However, their powers declined when the Mongols invaded again, this time to establish their rule on these Türkmen principalities. Following this, the Mongols started appointing governors to rule Anatolia, establishing the city of Sivas as their provincial capital.

At this period, the Anatolian Seljûqid Sultanate continued to exist, but it lost it's control outside Qonya, the capital, whereas it had already become a puppet of Ilkhanid governors. Among these governors, Ämîr Choban and Temürtash was the best known. It was during his governorship when 'Osmân Begh established his very small principality at Bithynia (Northwestern Anatolia). He was the succesor of Ertughrul Ghâzî, but it's not very clear whether they were tribal chieftains, or warlords with no relativeness. There are several theories on this; among this, the traditional history telling tells us that the ancestors of the rulers of the Ottoman Empire were a Türkmen (Oghuz) clan from the Oghuz tribe of Qayï (Kayý) which came to Anatolia during the Mongol Invasions, and that 'Osmân was Ertughrul's son, succeding him as the chieftain of the clan. However, some of the modern scholars doubted this, as there were no direct evidences from that period to proove anything. Those who opposed this story (headed by Paul Wittek) made up a new theory, claiming that Ertughrul was a warlord, his ghâzî followers were not linked to him through clan or tribal bonds, and 'Osmân might have been a commander among his ranks rather than being his son. There are also not so many evidences to proove this theory. It's true that Ertughrul and 'Osmân commanded a ghâzî force made up of volunteer frontier warriors who indeed probably did not have a pure tribal or clan bond, but this probably was how their forces became after their earliest succeses. I do think that 'Osmân was probably Ertughrul's son, and they were from a newly-arrived clan of the Qayï tribe of the Oghuz, and that their earliest force might have had a clan bond, but it's very well known that following their earliest succeses, and after the decline of the Germiyânid principality, more and more volunteer frontier warriors with no tribal or clan bond joined their ranks. They probably were both tribal chieftains and warlords.

Anyway; when Ämîr Choban arrived at Anatolia, almost all of the Türkmen principalities, including the 'Osmânids (Ottomans), submitted to him. At this period, the House of the Seljûqid Sultanate of Qonya finally died out at the year 1308. Ämîr Choban was later succeded by his son Temürtash, but he rebelled against the Ilkhanids and he had to flee to Egypt, yet he was finally killed. The Türkmen principalities were now practicially independent, but the Ilkhanids were still their theorical masters, until the year 1335, when the Ilkhanid Empire died out following a civil war.

[BAWIR$AQ]

admin said:

it belonged to the Oghuz people, not the Uyghurs.

The Oghuz did not have anything to do with Eastern Turkistan. They were just living too far away from there

You forget that essentially "oghuz" simply meant a tribe.

For example, other name for the early Uyghurs was "Toquz Oghuz" (nine tribes).

Today, by "Oghuz" we mean the linguistic subgroup that united Anatolians, Azeris, Turkmens, etc.

But in the early Turkic history, the word "oghuz", like the word "tribe", couldn't be tied to the specific group or region.


I think all Turkic clans and dynasties could be traced all the way back to the modern Mongolia-E.Turkistan area. It may not be technically possible or proven by sources though.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

But there was a people with the name Oghuz as early as the 820s, different than the Toquz Oghuz. You are right in the fact that the Turkic word "Oghuz" ment "tribes", but that general name became the name of a distinctive Turkic people as early as the 9th century.