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Urumchi
Mar 20, 2008 12:09:54 GMT 3
Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 12:09:54 GMT 3
Even the Han would say Wei Wu Er Si Tan (Uighuristan) No man, the Han would never say "Weiwuersitan" or Dun Torchesitan", to them it is "Xinjiang" and a part of China, they'd never call it by it's real name.
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Urumchi
Mar 20, 2008 14:44:11 GMT 3
Post by nanman on Mar 20, 2008 14:44:11 GMT 3
True 99% of Han in ET only refer to the province's name as XJUAR.
But I found out while I was there that if one said Wei wu er si tan in the context of
"Could this province had been named Wei Wu Er Si Tan" all understood. However, I could see if said in the context of "This province should be independent and the country should be called Wei Wu Er Si Tan", a pandora's box will open.
I have tried to ask some forum members in Chinahistoryforum who are ethnically Mongol from ET to see whether more light can be shed on the meaning of Urumqi. Most of us seemed to have had the info drummed in that its beautiful pastures in ancient Jungar Mongolian language. I think the eternal part was our guide getting too excited and caused me to mis understand. I just checked in a chinese book that I have on ET and it again drums in the "beautiful pasture" meaning.
Actually which source says the chinese founded Urumqi? Thats just absolute rubbish. Even chinese book I have in china does not literally say that. It talks about a small town near by was founded during the Tang period and collected taxes from trading caravans. I think this then leads to mis-interpretation that the whole area was setup by chinese and then mis-information spreads. Its more like a small Han community may had lived nearby since Tang period to trade but it was much more likely the locals in the area set up the place during Tang dynasty period.
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pantigin
Tudun
Without Uighurs, there was no Mahmud and without him, there is no complete stories of Turks !
Posts: 164
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Urumchi
Mar 20, 2008 21:11:48 GMT 3
Post by pantigin on Mar 20, 2008 21:11:48 GMT 3
So please ask any of your mongol friends does Urumchi really mean so called Eternal beautiful pasture as you have mentioned. Because I did that before and my mongol friends denied that. Probably doesn't I guess some of us just listen to what we get told. Most of the info seems to say its in ancient Jungar Mongol language. If it is really a Uighur place name then its time to set the record straight. I have said here that our fatal mistake is not to record our history ourselves and listen to what other people misled us to. You know maybe, there is a lake near to Urumchi named Tianchi (the heavenly lake) but Uighurs always call it Boghda Koli (the heavenly lake). During the blood thirsty warlord Sheng Shicai in 1930s, he has created some stories like Wangmu niang niang (the holy mother stories based on chinese Toisim) and he brought some toist monks from his hometown Jilin province and made a toist temple by the lake spreading fake stories like The lake boghda was a basin of Wangmu niangniang for washing her foot. The other people can hardly tell which is truth and which is false. Actually in warlord Shengshicai's hometown Jilin province there is a mountainous lake like Lake Boghda named Tianchi and that Wangmu Niangniang story belongs to that one. He ordered people to call Lake Boghda as Tianchi. Thus it became the basin of that holy mother. This type of artificial fake stories lie every where here. It's funny that any false story can be seen as truth through continuous repeating by the sory tellers. This story is still told up to now there, and the toist temple still is existing with much more fake toist monks than ever. What I want to explain by telling you this is that truth can be bent but never be killed....
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Urumchi
Mar 20, 2008 22:50:06 GMT 3
Post by nanman on Mar 20, 2008 22:50:06 GMT 3
This type of artificial fake stories lie every where here. It's funny that any false story can be seen as truth through continuous repeating by the sory tellers. This story is still told up to now there, and the toist temple still is existing with much more fake toist monks than ever. What I want to explain by telling you this is that truth can be bent but never be killed.... I could not agree with you more. This story is just made up. Its fantasy. I thank you for letting me know Tian Chi was called Boghda Koli. I will remember that. Apart from this fake Daoist Tian chi is just a chinese name for the lake. It means Heavenly Lake. What does Boghda Koli mean?
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Urumchi
Mar 21, 2008 14:15:32 GMT 3
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Mar 21, 2008 14:15:32 GMT 3
Köl means Lake. Boghda looks like the title of the Buddhist Mongol rulers. So it means "Lake of Boghda".
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pantigin
Tudun
Without Uighurs, there was no Mahmud and without him, there is no complete stories of Turks !
Posts: 164
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Urumchi
Mar 21, 2008 15:18:23 GMT 3
Post by pantigin on Mar 21, 2008 15:18:23 GMT 3
Köl means Lake. Boghda looks like the title of the Buddhist Mongol rulers. So it means "Lake of Boghda". Please don't push any turkic words you are unfamiliar with to Mongolian catagory. Boghda is common uighur turkic word through centuries. It means heavenly sacred great. We have songs like Boghda Ata and famous people named Boghda Abdulla. By the way, Happy Newruz to you all !
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pantigin
Tudun
Without Uighurs, there was no Mahmud and without him, there is no complete stories of Turks !
Posts: 164
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Urumchi
Mar 21, 2008 15:24:35 GMT 3
Post by pantigin on Mar 21, 2008 15:24:35 GMT 3
This type of artificial fake stories lie every where here. It's funny that any false story can be seen as truth through continuous repeating by the sory tellers. This story is still told up to now there, and the toist temple still is existing with much more fake toist monks than ever. What I want to explain by telling you this is that truth can be bent but never be killed.... I could not agree with you more. This story is just made up. Its fantasy. I thank you for letting me know Tian Chi was called Boghda Koli. I will remember that. Apart from this fake Daoist Tian chi is just a chinese name for the lake. It means Heavenly Lake. What does Boghda Koli mean? Boghda in uighur turkic means heavenly sacred great. Warlord Sheng shicai just translated it from its uighur name. Uighur people always call it as Boghda Koli. Believe you or not.
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Urumchi
Mar 21, 2008 21:14:15 GMT 3
Post by nanman on Mar 21, 2008 21:14:15 GMT 3
Happy new year !!!
I believe what you have said. I think there could still be a Mongolian language factor because Turkic language is closely related to it. The area that Boghda Koli is situated is a very much a Mongolian/Turkic people's transitional area.
Still no definitive answer whether Urumqi is anything to do with beautiful pastures in old Jungar Mongolian language. Although someone has suggested, the name came about only since the Oirat Mongol presence in the region.
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pantigin
Tudun
Without Uighurs, there was no Mahmud and without him, there is no complete stories of Turks !
Posts: 164
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Urumchi
Mar 22, 2008 13:49:27 GMT 3
Post by pantigin on Mar 22, 2008 13:49:27 GMT 3
Happy new year !!! I believe what you have said. I think there could still be a Mongolian language factor because Turkic language is closely related to it. The area that Boghda Koli is situated is a very much a Mongolian/Turkic people's transitional area. Still no definitive answer whether Urumqi is anything to do with beautiful pastures in old Jungar Mongolian language. Although someone has suggested, the name came about only since the Oirat Mongol presence in the region. but my dear netpal you should know who came first?
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Urumchi
Mar 22, 2008 14:45:43 GMT 3
Post by nanman on Mar 22, 2008 14:45:43 GMT 3
but my dear netpal you should know who came first? I am not an experienced enough historian to say whether what I think is true, so please correct me if what I think is wrong. I certainly think peope affiliated with the Uighur confederation were there first. They crossed the Altay mountains hundreds of years before some of the Mongolian tribes. The Uighur people then moved around the Tien Shan area and into the Tarim basin oasis areas. A lot of mixing took place with the Yuezhi or Tocharian people forming the basis of the modern Uighur people. So the Uighur people evolved after crossing the Altay. The pro-dominant culture was Turkic and there were most likely smaller Turkic tribes already in the area. It was stronger than that of the Tocharians therefore Tocharian language slowly fizzled out. The more Mongolian element came into the region a few hundred years later as Chinghis conquered westwards past the Altay. Some Mongolian tribes assimilated into the Uighur tribes, some kept a more distinctive character in their ethnicity. So my thinking is, the Uighur element easily predates any Mongolian element.
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