Umay, um-ay, am-ay????

[Deleted]

I'd like to talk about Turk-Mongol word 'Umay' and the Turkish word 'am'. Once I saw 'Umay' posted in the Turk Beauty topic the first word to come to my mind was 'am'. After seeing the definition of Umay and who she was it made sense of why Turkish says 'am', the the adding of -ay at the end, which is common for Turkish female names. Well my question is why would 'am' be considered a bad word in Turkish, the, I don't know how to say it, socially correct term for girl thingy in Turkish is 'dolyolu'. If Umay was a goddess or great woman why associate her name as a perverted, bad word? I hope you guys understand, I'm not trying to be perverted here, this is a real question.
Hhhhmmmmm, dol=offspring or sperm
yol=road
I never realized this about this word before, the girl thingy is the road to take to make offspring...it makes perfect sense to me.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

First of all, we should be sure whether Umay is Turkic or not. Many say the name is originially Soghdian

[raapi]

Well may I point out that Um isn't Am, the A and U make alot of difference.

[aca]

Raapi, you cant make such a comparision between two Turkish words which existed in Turkish language in different and distant times.

I'll just remind you that at the time when Orkhon Inscriptions were written, Kyrgyz and Turks spoke the same language. For example, in old Turkish (as well as in Kyrgyz) the word for "house" was "äb". This word later changed in Kyrgyz language to "üy", and in Turkish to "ev"; the old Turkish word for "good" was "ädgü", and in modern Turkish it has turned to "iyi".

My point is that the period of some 1300 years is simply to long for us to say that words "am" and "um" doesn't have anything to do with eachother.

There is a simple way to find out whether the word "Umay" really is related to that word now in Turkey pronounced as "am", or not. We have alredy seen that the word "Umay" in the language of Altays and Shors is pronounced as "ýmay". All we have to do is to find out what is the Altay or Shor equivalent for modern turkish word "am". In case we discover that the equivalent is "ým", then we can be sure that the word am/ým/ýmay is indeed related to "Umay".

Also we should be aware of the fact that some words, due to political, cultural, religious and other differences among the speakers of the same language, can alter their meanings. The most clear example for this would be the old Turkish word "kün" (the Sun), which in modern Turkish (gün) got the meaning of "day", while in some other Turkic languages it's meaning remained unchanged; the same goes for the word "kök" - "blue" and "sky"

At home I have "Altayca-Türkçe" dictionary, so I will look for the equivalent for the word "am"

[aca]

Guys, guess what!? According to"Altayca-Turkce Sozluk" (by Prof. Dr. Emine Gursoy-Naskali & Muvaffak Duranli, Turk Dili Kurumu, Ankara 1999 - ISBN 975-16-1146-6) the Altayic word "ým" is translated as "nemli; rutubetli þey" - eng. "moist"; "wet". Note that this word doesn't have the ending "-lý" (in Altayic it would be "-dý") so it doesn't represent an adjective.

Since this dictionary is small (only 260 pages) I can only guess that this word, as well as many others, have more than one meaning.

Here is another article about Umay:

Umai (Ymai, Mai, Omai). In the believes of the ancient Türks and Mongols Umai was a female Deity associated with benevolent deities and spirits. She was considered to be a favorite wife of Sky God Tengri, living in the heavenly zone. Like Yer-Sub, Umai directly deferred and performed assignments for Tengri. If Yer-Sub ruled over all alive on land and in the water, Umai was giving a special divine power to the people.

It is impossible to picture an image of Umai. Living in the heavenly zone, she radiates rays down to Earth, which penetrate into a man and as hot sparks live in him to his death. This spark supports in the man his vital energy and physical force, but it is neither spirit, nor Kut (luck; mercy, fortune; spirit. – Translator's note.). It is a divine power linking the man to the heavenly zone and it is sent by Tengri for his magnanimity. If the spark perishes, so perishes the man, he dies... Thus, everything spiritual and physical in our Universe was subjected to the two Deities Yer-Sub and Umai.

For the ancient Türks, Umai appeared as highly revered female Deity, who patronized all Türkic people. She participated, together with Tengri and Yer-Sub, in reaching a victory by the Türkic forces over an enemy. In the Orkhon inscription in honor of Tonyukuk there are such words: ‘Tengri, (Goddess) Umai, Sacred Yer-Sub, they, it should be believed, gave (us) victory’. In Orkhon inscriptions there is a comparison of the Khagan spouse with Umai: ‘...Her majesty my mother Katun, comparable to Umai...’. This testifies to the reverence of this Goddess by the highest ruling ranks of the ancient Türks, and first of all by the representatives of the divine authority on the Earth – the Khagans.

The ancient Türks did not sacrifice domestic animals to Goddess Umai. They prepared dairy and meat dishes and with solemn ceremonies dedicated them to Her.

After disintegration and fractionation of the ancient Türkic states and the detachment of the ancient Türkic population of Eurasia, the Goddess Umai began to be considered only as a protector, from bad spirits of the earthly world, of pregnant women and small children. The reverence to Umai (Ymai, Mai) Deity remained fresh in the memory of the Altai Türks until recent times.

And today a part of the modern Altai Türks thinks so. ‘When the Kut of the child reached the Earth, he was weak and helpless, and therefore together with him Umai descended from heavens, and guarded him even in the womb of the mother. It was necessary, for the malicious spirits, penetrating the human, could penetrate the womb of the pregnant woman and ruin the child, resulting in abortion. At the approach of delivery Umai helped the child to arrive, entering sometimes in a struggle with a malicious spirit, who interfered with delivery and pulled the child to itself. So were explained late and heavy deliveries. Umai helped to properly cut the umbilical cord. She not only safeguarded the child, but also looked after him, washed his face, cleaned eyelashes. Umai entertained the kid, educated him and talked to him in Her own way. They well understood each other. Sometimes the child, lying in the cradle, suddenly started to smile or laugh in a dream, and sometimes did it while awake. But sometimes child cried in a dream, slept restlessly, for Umai at that time left him.

Part of the Altai Türks, on the child reaching the age of six months, invited a Kam for a special sacramentation to Umai-ana (ana – mother), with a sacrifice of a young bull. During sacramentation they asked Umai to safeguard and to look after the baby, and attached to the cradle as a talisman a small model of a bow with an arrow, symbolizing the weapon Umai used for malicious spirits trying to attack the child. The complete care and the constant presence of Umai near the child continued until he learned not only to walk freely, and run, but mostly until he understood speech well, and spoke fluently. It happened at approximately 5-6 years of age. Now the child was completely included into his social environment, first of all in the circle of the parents and relatives, was being accustomed to work, played with children of his age, etc. At this point his connection with Umai-ana completely stopped.’6 When a child reached this age, a special kamlation (sacramentation. – Translator’s note) to Tengri was organized at the request of the parents, with a sacrifice of a domestic animal, and with an appeal for longevity for the child, because Tengri endowed the Kut (soul) to the child.

‘A part of Altai-Sayan Türks preserved Umai as a patroness of pregnant and small children. Here was well preserved a concept about archaic attributes of a deity personifying a female side of the human reproduction, as a patroness and defender of pregnant and newborn from malicious spirits of the earthly world. The babies, just born in the earthly world by the will of Heavenly Deities, were especially sensitive to malicious spirits.

Children saw and felt the malicious spirits in the dwelling, unlike the adult people, and certainly with exception of a Kam. The representation of a female biological beginning was also mirrored in the name Umai, which (equally for Türks and Mongols) meant the womb of the mother, uterus, placenta, and even cut off umbilical cord. It underlined the specificity of Umai functions as a deity of popular reproduction. It was Her, that the childless or unprolific spouses, and women, whose children died in infancy, and the like, asked for children.’7 Kams revered Umai at difficult deliveries, the women called Her Umai-ana – ‘mother Umai.’

The concept of placenta and umbilical cord under a name Umai (Mai, Ymai, Omai) are not alien to both modern Altai-Sayan Türks and Mongols. Believing that Umai will remain in the umbilical cord and will permanently patronize the child, customarily the umbilical cord was buried in the yurt near a hearth. Revering Umai, the Türks in many families made a symbolical small bow with arrow or spindle, to serve as a talisman for the babies. The bow with arrow was for the boys, spindle was for the girls. These amulets were attached to the dwelling, near the usual place where was a cradle with child. They were made at the first placement of the newborn into the cradle, with the invited Kam, and removed when children grew up and did not use a cradle any more.

The modern Volga Tatars do not revere Umai deity. This reverence was preserved in the pre-Islamic Tatar dastans (poetic tales) and legends, in language and in customs. In Tatar language are many well-known words derived from roots um, ym, im, am, expressing female womb or link between the mother and child ym, ymsynu, ymyn amu, yyumalau, im-gek, imu, imezu, imezlek, -imi, -imchak, am, amyi, mai etc.
Today the Türks do not know about Umai deity, and therefore, do not recognize Her. But with it they did not become neither spiritually, nor materially richer. The divine birth of the child, childcare have simply turned to a usual reproduction, but even that is not for themselves, but as a service to other peoples.

More on ancient Turko-Mongol Dieties: www.turkicworld.org/

[aca]

Feramez asked:
"Well my question is why would 'am' be considered a bad word in Turkish, the, I don't know how to say it, socially correct term for girl thingy in Turkish is 'dolyolu'."

Don't be confused by the negative connotation of the word "am" in modern Turkish language. Keep in mind that many old Turkish words, which are preserved in modern Turkish, now sound rural or have bad meaning - For example, an old Turkish word "ıt" once was perfectly normal word for "dog", but in modern Turkish the word ("it") got a bad connotation. Instead you use the word "köpek" as "socially correct" term

[tangriberdi]

As far As I Know Am (vulgar word for female genital organ) is related to werb Em- to such to absorb.
Thinking its function it sounds related.
In old Turkish there is a noun Emrek (meaning: Lover, Womanchaser, Horny. A person who want an "am")
In this word Em hides a close meaning to AM and definitely related to it.

In pre-Islamic Turkic language this word was never a taboo it was one of social words. So was Sik, thingy, vulgar.

Terminologically Dölyolu and Am are different things.
Am is external appearance of the sexual organ. Dölyolu is something between womb and Am.

[tangriberdi]

aca said:

Feramez asked:
"Well my question is why would 'am' be considered a bad word in Turkish, the, I don't know how to say it, socially correct term for girl thingy in Turkish is 'dolyolu'."

Don't be confused by the negative connotation of the word "am" in modern Turkish language. Keep in mind that many old Turkish words, which are preserved in modern Turkish, now sound rural or have bad meaning - For example, an old Turkish word "ıt" once was perfectly normal word for "dog", but in modern Turkish the word ("it") got a bad connotation. Instead you use the word "köpek" as "socially correct" term

I should add:
Until 1800s "It" was the general term for Dog
Female dog was called Kancik
Male dog was called köpek.
Meaning shift is really confusing and it is one of the reasons for degeneration of a Language.

For example.
In old Anatolian Turkish , to urinate is siymek
The root Siy- is akin to Sidik, Urine and Sik, thingy
Later this word become perceived vulgar.
Instead, the word ishemek is put in use.
However, originally ishemek means to be busy, to be engaged in a particular job or work

Ýt derives from the word Ish, work

When people need to urinate they refer to it with ishemek, be busy
When Ishemek (to be busy) is functioned as siymek, siymek is forgotten but the meaning "be busy" could not meant because the real verb is used to refer something else. This lead to borrow a word from Arabic: masghul olmak,
When you do not love your own language and find it rude and vulgar, you open a door to linguistic imperialism of other languages.
So, whether you think am is rude or not, whether you like or not, do not look for another word. It is us. It is one of our values. And it should remain.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Very interesting!

One example for your points: Yaraq originially had the meaning of "Dagger" in Old Turkic, but today it is used for the rude form of male thingy. Yaraq actually means "something which cut throughs", coming from the root Yar- (to cut through). Like how Sanjaq (Sanchaq, Banner) comes from Sanch, "to kill with spear" and like how Bayrak (Batïraq, Flag) comes from Bat-, "penetrate".

[tangriberdi]

Your points make me feel need to explain something:
Do you know the root of the word Alkish (applause).
Let me explain.
In old Turkish there were two words for modern Turkish övmek, to boost, to praise.

One was ög-
The other was alqa-
There was difference in their meaning.
Ög- is used when the person is absent while you are praising them.
Alqa-is used when the person is present while you are praising them.
Alqa derives from Old Turkic Al, Front, Frontside +-qa, to
Basically meaning doing something in front of someone.
When we applause someone we praise them while they are present, infront of their eyes.
That is the relation and that is the richness of Turkish.

If there is someone who could not undrstand the principle difference between ögmek and alqamaq I can explain it in Turkish via PM.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Yes, very logical