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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 7, 2006 20:32:02 GMT 3
I realised I know next to nothing about the period of Khitan rule in Mongolia (after they expelled the Qïrghïz in the 920s) So, can someone please enlighten us on this subject? What are the main historical sources about this period? Chinese sources of the Song Dynasty? How much did Khitan rule last? Did the city remnants in Tov Aimag belonged to the Khitans?
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Post by Verinen Paroni on Sept 8, 2006 12:57:07 GMT 3
Offtopic:
Wasn't Yelu Chucai from Khitan's Imperial family?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 8, 2006 13:00:32 GMT 3
Yes, he carries the surname Yelü (Yeliu).
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Post by Verinen Paroni on Sept 8, 2006 13:12:30 GMT 3
Yelü A Bao Ji was founder of that dynasty(Liao), I think.
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Post by snafu on Sept 8, 2006 16:23:48 GMT 3
The Mongolian portion of the Liao empire was controlled by the "Northwest Bandit pacification commission" (Xibei zhaotaosi), which had its capital in the fortress-town of Zhenzhou/Kedun in the Orkhon valley. According to the Liaoshi Kedun was founded by an aunt of Liao emperor Shenzong, who lead an attack against some rebellious tribes. Later, after the Liao empire fell, Khara Khitai founder Yelu Dashi used Kedun as a temporary base and assumed control of the 20,000 man garrison. The Liaoshi mentions several smaller towns in the vicinity of Kedun-- Weizhou, Fangzhou, and Zhaozou. Further east, along the Kerulen river, there was the town of Hedung and a string of small fortresses. I'm not sure what happened to these towns after the Liao. Since the Mongols became very strong after the fall of the Liao (under Khabul Khan) I'm assuming that it just became too difficult for the Jin to maintain outposts deep in Mongolia. There were many wars between the Mongols and the Jin, and I don't think the Jin had the might to control the tribes the way the Liao did.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 9, 2006 10:47:16 GMT 3
Thank you snafu, I never knew these I guess I got lots of more things to learn
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Post by snafu on Sept 9, 2006 18:35:12 GMT 3
We all have holes in our knowledge. That's why we come here. To learn what we don't know
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Post by tadamson on Sept 24, 2006 0:07:45 GMT 3
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 24, 2006 1:54:47 GMT 3
Thank you tadamson.
But I should point out that there are some serious mistakes in the aticles published in the Uglychinese site, especially about non-Chinese Altaic nomads. The articles on Khitans and Liao also seem to have some information which are today thought to be outdated or inaccurate (such as the Tungusicness of the Xianbei-Wuhuan).
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Post by Bor Chono on Sept 24, 2006 2:07:48 GMT 3
Kidans were Mongol origin ppl mixed with Chinese & Chinese culture -I heard they even used teethbrush. I shall look in Mongolian history books & post important parts of their history. (I guess chinese knows more )
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 24, 2006 2:11:03 GMT 3
The Khitans-being-Tungusic theory has been already outdated. Now, the majority of the scholars think they were Mongolic, as far as I know. We can discuss about the ethnicity of the Khitans in a new thread
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Post by tadamson on Sept 24, 2006 16:06:03 GMT 3
Thank you tadamson. But I should point out that there are some serious mistakes in the aticles published in the Uglychinese site, especially about non-Chinese Altaic nomads. The articles on Khitans and Liao also seem to have some information which are today thought to be outdated or inaccurate (such as the Tungusicness of the Xianbei-Wuhuan). Agreed it has to be read with care as he pulls from the Chinese sources, I find it a useful counter to the Russian sites most of which are still a straight Marxist comment on the archeology (nb Marxist views may be out of fashion but that doesn't, by itself, make them wrong). I'm expecting great things from the new generation of historians coming out of the 'Turkic' states once they have worked through the "all nomads were Turks, all Turks are wonderful" stage. There are already several very good papers published.
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Post by stirner on Dec 4, 2006 12:16:46 GMT 3
"Kidans were Mongol origin ppl mixed with Chinese & Chinese culture" - this is way over-simplified.. The Khitan's ethnic origin is still debated, but they were probably a branch of the Donghu who in turn came from the Xianbei. They were known to the Chinese as an ethnic group during the Northern Wei dynasty. Today, the Daur of Jilin and Heilongjiang provinces in Northeast China are there direct descendants. In the Yuan dynasty I imagine the Khitan also were assimilated into the Mongolian populations. As for Chinese culture - the Khitans were never "sinicized" (hate that word) like the Jurchens, or other groups in the North-East. They successfully retained their native culture and religion, invented their own script, and managed the multi-ethnic Liao state -Khitan, Chinese Bohai, Turkic, Jurchen, Mohe populations. Constructing Han cities, Buddhist stupas and some Han bureaucratic practices allowed the Abaoji to consolidate his power. Adopting Chinese cultural practices was a means to achieve the political and social unity over a multi-ethnic, multi-lingual amalgamation of tribes, providing the Khitans with a central administration and Liao court by which they could solidify and extend their rule. Material culture indicates the Khitan preserved distinct cultural traditions, while developing prosperous and complex social, political and trade relationships across Asia, including Persia, Korea, Japan and Song China. Anyway, snafu, I want ask whether the fortress-town of Zhenzhou/Kedun in the Orkhon valley is the same as this place : www.jts88.com/mongolia/khitan/khitan.html ?? Please take a look and let me know what you think. I am pretty clueless about the nature of Khitan rule in Mongolia. The maps of the time show settlements, I guess it was maintained as a short of border/buffer area, with the different native tribes paying tribute? I assume they would be as the Song dynasty was supplying tonnes of silver and silk in tribute to the Liao. Were these tribes incorporated into the Liao army in some way? Did they relocate Han labour to Eastern Mongolia to build these settlements? To show my ignorance, can someone tell me what Mongol/Mongolic (can we use that term this early ? early 10th century?) tribes would have roaming around this area at the time ?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 5, 2006 0:48:56 GMT 3
Hello stirner, welcome to SHF! The ethnic composition of Mongolia at that time is pretty unknown and missing information because of the lack of written sources, as I know. It was around this time when the peoples like the Naimans, Kereyit and Merkit appeared, whereas the Mongghol (Mongol) tribe of the Shiwei became a separate people on their own.
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Post by snafu on Dec 5, 2006 5:22:46 GMT 3
Those could be the ruins of Kedun. I'm not sure. The Khitan built several walled towns in Mongolia, so it could be any of them. I don't think the ruins of Kedun have ever been positively identified. The Liao official history mentions that the Mongolian towns were populated mostly by banished Chinese and Jurchen settlers.
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