Hi Again,
Well i followed the advice and did some more reading... with as much open mind and ibias as possible...
I also read what was posted here while I was away...
I have to say the Turkic origins of Scythians sounds to me now only 5% probable. I realised Azeri & turkic historians have probably gone a bit beyond limit trying to accertain Turkic origins of various languages and tribes...
Now I will only concentrate on Azeris agai as for me they are the key to foinding our about turkic origins at least for my region.
I found out that Herodotus refers to the was between Cyrus and Tomyris beyond river Araxes. It's said beyond riverAraxes lived Massagetae which were either a type of Scythians or very close to them. The current belief/interpretation places them in central Asia betwwen 2 rivers Amudarya and Syrdarya. The Wiki says Araxes was really Jaxartes, not Araxes as he desctibes on the west of the Caspian ses were Caucsian mountains and on the east of it vast steppes. The georgians, Azeris and some other iterprest it as the Kura-Araxes valley (vast steppe, too, in comparison wth a modest figure of a man) and that when Herodotus said east of it, he did not mean east of the Caspian Sea but East of the greater caucasus. The valley is between two rivers as well - Kura and Araxes. We know from the story that after the negotioations Cyrus crosses the river back into Persian land. This is possible if you cross Araxes and crossing Araxes is very easy. Plus Araxes means fast strem from greek and we know that only the river Araxes is fast, the two rivers in central Asia are rather slow flowing. Plus he describes Araxes as starting to frlo from eastern Anatolia, which is true only for the river Araxes in Caucasus! So, the Massagetae lived in Caucasus, not central asia, hence they were a bit dofferrent from the scythians who came to caucasus later. Georgians believe Massagetae as Mskhetis. Also it;s know of Mushkis who lived here. Azeris believe Mazquts lived on the west shores of the caspian and they were Scythians-Sakas. Sheki in Azerbaijan is believed to have been both Albanian and Scythian city Saka-Seki-Sheki-Shaki. Azeris have got one thing wrong (if the 5% I left as a spare for this theory) that they are descendants of turks. if they are, why arenlt they Turanoid and carrying some Mongolic/Ugruc/East Asiatic genes? Also Azeris believe Oguz turks were caucasoid looking and even depicted the epic Dede Korkut as one. To me his image as seen from one of the buildings in Baku seems VERY SCYTHIAN! Check it out
www.enotes.com/topic/Book_of_Dede_KorkutYou can find it under para Soviet treatment.
I have read articles which say Oguz were not Turanoid (how come?) Becasue Azeris always try to explain to themselves (before genetic testing became possible) why Azeris look nothing like Turanoid. Strabo mentions 26 tribes who spoke differrent languages (not necessarily from differrent lingistic groups, but not the same either) and Azeri scholars deduct through tribe names trasncription into turkic that some were Turkic (trying to explain why Azeris ended up speaking Turkic language!). Strabo did not say some of the tribes were Turkic. Turkic scholar say that. At least I was not able to find any evidence, even after reading the relevant chapter of his geographies. The we have the Caucasian Albanians, Strabo lists them and it's possible amongst them were native caucasian speakers too (BTW also agglutinative languages). The last Albanian hero so loved and respected by Azeris and rgarded as a national hero Javanshir (Persian Young Lion) looks were scythian to me, too from how he is depicted at least. Either this is just free imagination working, mixing up the relaities of his real reflections, I don't know yet.
here is his picture. he is of iranic origin, king of Albania during sassaian period. Most probably he was probably a Mede.
The 26 tribes in caucasus are mentioned as Aryan, who later became Albanian... Either they were called Aryan because they were tall, blond and Caucasoid or because of their language, I still have to find out.
Strabo wrote in his Geographica (11.4)L "The Albanians are more inclined to the shepherd's life than the Iberians and are closer akin to the nomadic people, except that they are not ferocious.
"The inhabitants of this country are unusually handsome and large. And they are frank in their dealings and not mercenary; for they do not in general use coined money, nor do they know any number greater than one hundred, but carry on business by means of barter and otherwise live an easy-going life. They are also unacquainted with accurate measures and weights, and they give no forethought to war or government or farming. But still they fight both on foot and on horseback, both in light armour and in full armour, like the Armenians. The Albanians use javelins and bows; and they wear breastplates and large oblong shields and helmets made of the skins of wild animals, similar to those worn by the Iberians.
"The Albanians are surpassingly respectful to old age, not merely to their parents, but to all other old people. And when people die it is impious to be concerned about them or even to mention them. Indeed, they bury their money with them, and therefore live in poverty, having no patrimony. They send forth a greater army than that of the Iberians; for they equip sixty thousand infantry and twenty-two thousand horsemen, the number with which they risked their all against Pompey. Against outsiders the nomads join with the Albanians in war, just as they do with the Iberians, and for the same reasons; and besides, they often attack the people, and consequently prevent them from farming.
" To the country of the Albanians belongs also the territory called Caspiane, which was named after the Caspian tribe, as was also the sea; but the tribe has now disappeared. The pass from Iberia into Albania leads through Cambysene, a waterless and rugged country, to the Alazonius River. Both the people and their dogs are surpassingly fond of hunting, engaging in it not so much because of their skill in it as because of their love for it.
"They have twenty-six languages, because of this fact they have no easy means of intercourse with one another. The office of priest is held by the man who, after the king, is held in highest honour; he has charge of the sacred land, which is extensive and well-populated, and also of the temple slaves, many of whom are subject to religious frenzy and who utter prophecies." Another ancient author, Arrian, describing events during Alexander the Great's campaign (331 BC), mentions Albanians who took part in the battle of Gaugamela on the side of the Persians among the troops of Atropates, the Persian satrap of Media under Darius III. There are mentions of Albanians in descriptions of military campaigns by Pompeius (66 BC).
In any way, Azeris and other Turkic scholars tried to show some tribes were Turkic. To me it sound improbable. It woudl sound probable if we had turkic genes, but we don't so... Also, I now agree theories and loogic of Turkic world is not very plausible or trustworthy. It's more like game of words...
It seems more likely Scythians were iranic tribes. They lived in Caucasus as Scythians, Saka and Mazkuts (Massagetae). They lived side by seide with the natives - Caucasian speakers. Later the majority especially during the Sassanian period became Iranisised. Then came Mongols and Turks and through elite dominance mechanism replaced the language of ppl to Turkic without blood mixing.
Azeries have adopted Dede Korkut from the invading Oguz tribes and mixed them up with their own memories of the past and made themsleves believe Oguzs were cacuasoid and Dede Korkut was too. But by speakign a Turkic language you do not become one. Our culture and mentality are mixed but in the North mainly Caucasian-Iranic and in the South - Iranic-Caucasian. Only world and Dada Korkut is Turkic. Oguz believe they were born from she-wolf called Tomiris (Queen Tomyris of Massagetae???) this made them believe Massagetae were Turkic. But looks like they adopted her memory into the newly arriving Oguz folklor - how else would native hold memories of the past? This way at least they preserves some memories of the past although muddle up with the Turkic folklore. Caucaisan Albania was the land of Amazons described by Strabo & Plutarch. See this article. it maybe slighly biase din thinking Azeris descend from Turkic Oquzs, but this is the on-going belief in the country which maybe will change with the genetic findings!
azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/ai131_folder/131_articles/131_amazons.htmlThe sotry of Bnuchichek is a scythian legend sucked into the Turkic folklor to be thought to have been Oguz.
I agre, this is where Azeri scholars are making mistake, trying to bring everything to the fact that Turks always lived in Caucasus... They did not live here in BC for sure. Maybe they started to arrive in small groups from 6 C onwards.
I also have a theory dedicated to my 5% of doubt about Turkic origins of schythians which I will write in my next post. Pls read it and tell me if it's a complete nonsence ot there maybe some truth in it? The theory is based on my findings and "logical" colclusions.
But yes, 95% of me now believes Scythians were not Turkic speakers. They looked nothig like Eurasians and their language was Iranic, not Turkic. However, now rises the question about relationship between Caucians who are nonIE agglutinative speakers and IE/Iraninc Scthians. Strabo describes Albanians as veery similar to Scythians and also similar to Iberians who are without a dound Caucasian people. Maybe from living side by side, they simply borrowed each others customs and costumes? Maybe Scythians "civilised" the native caucasians,m taught them how to fight but as we can read from Strabo, Albanians were not militant people and preferred peace to war. yet they were more nomadic shepherds that totally sedentary and this maybe another reason why Oguz were mixed up with the albanians and probably Albanian tales are very similar to Oguz tales in that they were both shepherding nomads, roaming valleys and mountains. The nomadism in Azerbaijan to date is rstricted purely to shepherding. In summer herds of sheep go up the mountains and they come down to the valleys for winter. That all nomadism there is. The villages were sedentary. Their wives amd kids do not travel with them. They are just a type of farmers. But can be easily mistaken for real nomads...
OK, the other 5% of my theory in my other post little later :-)