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Post by asiaticus on Aug 25, 2006 0:21:19 GMT 3
Does anybody know the etymologies of names Orkhon and Selenga?
Loriano Belluomini, Lucca, Italy
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Post by Boorchi Noyan on Aug 25, 2006 1:40:14 GMT 3
I think it is Selenge. About the etymologies, I think Orkhun can come from Or+Khun. Maybe the city(fortress, area) of Huns... I don't know...
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Post by tengrikut on Aug 25, 2006 14:40:03 GMT 3
may be or comes from "ur" which means stone.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 25, 2006 19:39:18 GMT 3
Orkhon and Selenga's Old Turkic forms were Orqun and Seleñe but I have no idea what is the etymology behind these names. I have to ask someone expert on Old Turkic  |
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Post by asiaticus on Aug 25, 2006 21:33:21 GMT 3
Tengrikut wrote:
<<may be or comes from "ur" which means stone>> .
In wich language?
There is the ancient Xiongnu name Anhou (+/- *angu /argu ) . This was the ancient name of Orkhon. Is it possible that this name is Turkic? This would be a very important hint to Xiongnu identity. What could * arghu mean?
I know it could be a defective form of *arghun , but Chinese had the way to write a final -n (for instance using Hun GSR 458b or other characters ending in -n. So, if we remain with *arghu, could anybody explain its meaning?
Selenge was also an important river in Xiongnu land. What could it mean?
Loriano Belluomini, Italy
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Post by snafu on Aug 26, 2006 4:32:42 GMT 3
In old Turkic "Or" means "center." I'm guessing that's what the Or in Orkhon means. But I'm not sure about the "khun" part. There is an old Uyghur word khun that means friend or guest. But I don't think that's it. Is it possible that its derived from khan? "Khan of the center" would be a logical name for such an important river.
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Post by tengrikut on Aug 26, 2006 13:06:50 GMT 3
Tengrikut wrote: <<may be or comes from "ur" which means stone>> . In wich language? There is the ancient Xiongnu name Anhou (+/- *angu /argu ) . This was the ancient name of Orkhon. Is it possible that this name is Turkic? This would be a very important hint to Xiongnu identity. What could * arghu mean? I know it could be a defective form of *arghun , but Chinese had the way to write a final -n (for instance using Hun GSR 458b or other characters ending in -n. So, if we remain with *arghu, could anybody explain its meaning? Selenge was also an important river in Xiongnu land. What could it mean? Loriano Belluomini, Italy it is in turkic and sumerian language. |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 26, 2006 21:23:47 GMT 3
Tengrikut wrote: <<may be or comes from "ur" which means stone>> . In wich language? There is the ancient Xiongnu name Anhou (+/- *angu /argu ) . This was the ancient name of Orkhon. Is it possible that this name is Turkic? This would be a very important hint to Xiongnu identity. What could * arghu mean? I know it could be a defective form of *arghun , but Chinese had the way to write a final -n (for instance using Hun GSR 458b or other characters ending in -n. So, if we remain with *arghu, could anybody explain its meaning? Selenge was also an important river in Xiongnu land. What could it mean? Loriano Belluomini, Italy In order to understand whether the name Arghu is Turkic or not, we have to know what the core part, Ar-, means. I think I have to ask this to some Turkologists. |
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Post by asiaticus on Aug 26, 2006 21:27:09 GMT 3
Interesting, tengrikut. Could you quote the fonts?
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Post by Boorchi Noyan on Aug 26, 2006 22:21:30 GMT 3
In old Turkic Or also means ''place to preserve''. From that meaning I have developed an interesting theory. If ''Or'' means ''place to preseve'' and ''Khun'' is Hun than we can say that Orkhun was the name of the region and river where Khuns (with the meaning of ''people'') were safe. In their belief this area was holy (Iduk) and there can be a belief that they were protected by Tengri (God) in that area of Orkhun, that is why they gave this name to this region.
And if we come to the word Arghu, is it just the pronunciation of the Turkic word in chinese? If so, we can exactly say that the real form of that word is Orkhun....
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Post by asiaticus on Aug 29, 2006 0:47:02 GMT 3
Interesting theory, Boorchi Noyan.
I do not understand what do you mean here: "is it just the pronunciation of the Turkic word in chinese? If so, we can exactly say that the real form of that word is Orkhun.... " . Could you explain what do you mean?
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Post by Boorchi Noyan on Aug 30, 2006 0:10:41 GMT 3
well I mean that for example Tengri is Chengli in chinese annuals. As it is just the chinese pronunciation of that word? Get it?
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Post by asiaticus on Aug 30, 2006 2:01:08 GMT 3
In modern Chinese *arghu is read Anhou (do you have Grammata Serica Recensa of Bernard Karlgren or Lexicon of Recontructed Pronunciation in Early Chinese... by Edwin G. Pulleyblank?) : In Ancient Chinese (about 600 A.D.) according Pulleyblank, pages 24, and 125, it is read * ?an-gu (this is approximate, I have not here International Phonetic Alphabet; for more precise reading you need Pulleyblank's book) . According Karlgren, Grammata Serica 146a,113a, it is read *.an- gu <* *.an- g'u (same problem as above) . From these reading we can see that the ancient (Hanshu 94) reading of the Orkhon river name is n-defective, something as *argu.
Loriano, Lucca
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Post by Bor Chono on Aug 30, 2006 13:55:51 GMT 3
I don`t know what does Orhon & Selenge means. Well...In Mongolian lang : Seleh =to swim Selene =will swim Selengee =while swimming  -I have nothing to say for Orhun/Orhon  (I`ll try to find out, I`ll ask other Mongols  ) |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 30, 2006 19:16:28 GMT 3
I had ordered Pulleyblank's book from Amazon.com some weeks ago. I got the book three days ago  It is a great work. Now I am planning to order Karlgren's book. After I will get my Chinese improved, I will order Wang Li's book too. Because they are Turkic names ;D |
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