|
|
Post by morlie on Sept 2, 2015 12:42:54 GMT 3
Hello, I am new on this forum. My name is Jean-luce Morlie, 68 years-old man, belgian. I will be very happy to discuss and elaborate different topics about steppe history. My first topic is about "mongol " etymology. Wiktionary french says: "Emprunt de l’endonyme mongol Монгол, mongol." fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/mongol#.C3.89tymologie Does any of you have a better solution? Regards, |
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 2, 2015 18:23:00 GMT 3
Greetings Mr. Morlie, welcome aboard.
Honestly I don't have any idea about the etymology of the word Mongol. What I know is that it's original Mongolian form is Mongghol and the earliest attested written record of it is from the Chinese sources of the 8th century which mention these Mongols as a branch of the Shiwei.
As I said before, I don't know what Mongghol means, but I remember seeing a word in the form of mongghul in one of the Turkic Uyghur documents. Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable on this topic can help us here.
|
|
|
|
Post by snafu on Sept 2, 2015 19:08:47 GMT 3
Yeah, there's no definite explanation for the meaning, only theories. One theory I've read is that the name might come from a river called Mong qol, but no river by that name has ever been identified in writing, so there's no hard proof. Like Ihsan said, it goes back to at least the 8th century, and it came and went over the years. It's possible that some ancestor of Genghis Khan's just heard stories about a great tribe from the past called Mongol, invented a family tree that made him a member of it, and just adopted that name not even knowing what it originally meant. Tribal names were always being adopted or recycled like that. I bet even Genghis Khan himself had no idea what the name originally meant.
|
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 4, 2015 0:01:09 GMT 3
Yes, that is quite possible indeed.
I also remember reading somewhere (don't remember where) that Mongol might have evolved from Old Turkic Mäŋgü Il (Menggü Il) meaning "Eternal Realm". However I don't know if this is a credible theory, and we already know that Old Turkic Bäŋgü (Mäŋgü) was borrowed by Mongolian not in a form like Monggh but as Möngke.
|
|
|
|
Post by snafu on Sept 4, 2015 23:03:19 GMT 3
Unless some new evidence is discovered, I guess we'll never know for sure.
|
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 5, 2015 11:27:39 GMT 3
That is very true.
|
|
nomadsoul
Är
bearer of the Afanasevo culture
Posts: 27 
|
Post by nomadsoul on Apr 30, 2016 10:41:08 GMT 3
Shiwei was probably a mispronunciation of Senbi (or Xianbei)
so technically speaking Mongol was a Xianbei tribe, at least Borjijin clan
this theory was again confirmed by Chinese envoy sent to Mongolia
he said that Temuchin was a man of great statue, with elongated face, fierce eyes and full beard
|
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 30, 2016 14:03:34 GMT 3
That is probable indeed. Modern reconstructions of Middle Chinese pronunciatons of Xianbei and Shiwei reflect *Serbi and *Shirvi, which look similar to each other.
|
|
nomadsoul
Är
bearer of the Afanasevo culture
Posts: 27
|
Post by nomadsoul on May 1, 2016 1:25:14 GMT 3
That is probable indeed. Modern reconstructions of Middle Chinese pronunciatons of Xianbei and Shiwei reflect *Serbi and *Shirvi, which look similar to each other. alternative theories proposed by historian Senbi/Xianbei = Sabir/Suavir (a Scythian-Sacae tribe) Senbi/Xianbei = Sun+Beyg (lord) (half Tocharian half Scythian-sacae) |
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 2, 2016 10:48:42 GMT 3
Never heard of those theories.
|
|
nomadsoul
Är
bearer of the Afanasevo culture
Posts: 27
|
Post by nomadsoul on May 2, 2016 19:04:58 GMT 3
Never heard of those theories. proposed by Bulgarian and Hungarian historian |
|
|
|
Post by Temüjin on May 2, 2016 22:05:43 GMT 3
bulgarian nationalists also believe they're from balkh, afghanistan...or even bihar in india...  |
|
nomadsoul
Är
bearer of the Afanasevo culture
Posts: 27
|
Post by nomadsoul on May 3, 2016 1:41:37 GMT 3
bulgarian nationalists also believe they're from balkh, afghanistan...or even bihar in india... Bulgars were nomadic tribes of Eurasian steppe, possibly of Xiongnu/Hunnic extraction |
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 3, 2016 10:49:51 GMT 3
Bulgarian national historians are not to be trusted at all.
The Bulgars were formed from the Oghur tribes, who probably descended from the western branch of the Dingling people. The Oghurs mixed with the Huns only after the collapse of the Hunnic Empire following Attila's death.
|
|
