saber of charlemagne (possibly avar)

[Temüjin]

those are the imperial regalia of charlemagne, including three swords, two of which are clearly european, the third (on the right) however is clearly of asian origin:

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Yes, it must have been either a victory token captured by the defeated Avars, or a diplomatic gift sent by the Avar qaghan to Charlemagne. However I have also read some labels of this sword as being Magyar, but considering the fact that the Magyars were still far too east in the Pontic Steppe during Charlemagne's reign makesw that possibility weak.

[Temüjin]

yes, i've seen it refered to as being of 'hungarian style' whatever that means. it's clearly anachronistic to call it like that.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Indeed, quite anachronistic. By the way, is this the same sword displayed in Vienna with the name "Charlemagne's Sabre"?

[Temüjin]

i don't know, those are replicas on display in the town hall of aachen (aix-la-chapelle in french), afaik there is no other sabre refered to as such, so it's either another replica or the original.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Oh I see, thanks.

[Druzhina]

Has the sabre been dated?

There are items that are said to be Charlemagne's but which are much later.
For example "Charlemagne's chess set", Norman Southern Italy, end of the eleventh century was thought (in France in medieval times) to be a gift from a Persian Shah to Charlemagne.


If something was Charlemagne's it was more important and had a mystique. There may even have been deliberate fraud to make money by calling something Charlemagne's, just as there were a lot of fake saints' relics and pieces of the 'True Cross'.

The spear-head on the right of the sabre may be the encased "spear that pierced Christ's side".

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

That is possible too.

[Temüjin]

yeah i looked it up, the original items are in vienna, the sabre has been dated to the second half of the 9th century, which is after the avars (and charlemagne). according to legend, emperor otto III found it when the tomb of charlemagne was opened in the year 1000.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Yes that could be Magyar if dated to that period, but still also could be Avar (post-qaghanate period after the destruction of the qaghanate in the early 9th century by Charlemagne; it is known that the Avars continued to live in Hungary even after the fall of their empire).

[teddybear59]

Hi!
I'm new on these boards but have been studying Old Magyar history, and generally the steppes, for some 40 years now. The sword in Vienna known either as 'Attila's Sword' or 'Charlemagne's Sword' is definitely a magyar sabre. The Avars invented the sabre and there are many examples in museums in Hungary, notably the Jósa András Muzeum, where one can observe the slight curve in the blade developing. The Magyars had a standard sabre, with the grip bent forward to give more leverage. The word 'sabre' is also of Hungarian origin, referring to 'cutting' ('szabni') 'to slice'. The sabre came into the possession of Otto II of Nordheim, a Bavarian prince, in 1063, after helping King Salamon. The sabre was likely called 'Attila's sword' by the House of Árpád, because they had a very strong tradition linking them to Attila, despite the latter being unpopular in the Christian West, they held to their own tradition.
Here is a link to an educational site showing many such sabres that have been unearthed from the 9th and 10th C in Hungary.

www.arcanum.hu/hu/online-kiadvanyok/MagyarViseletek-magyar-viseletek-tortenete-2/fekete-tablak-magyarazata-92/11-honfoglalaskori-magyar-fegyverek-F8/

I hope this helps clarify the situation!
Cheers!

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Hi teddybear59, welcome aboard and thank you for your contribution.