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Post by ancalimon on Jun 13, 2011 16:08:16 GMT 3
In Turkish we call them Kýpçak. The part I'm more interested in is the ÇAK (we pronounce it as "chuck") part. ÇAK means to start a reaction in Turkish. for example ÇAKMAK (noun): lighter ÇAKMAK: to hit something ÇAKMAK: to become aware of the truth, to understand something subtle and many other meanings: www.seslisozluk.com/?word=%C3%A7akmak
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Post by snafu on Jun 13, 2011 20:16:46 GMT 3
According to Rashid al-din, the Kipchaks are descended from Kipchak, an adopted son of Oghuz Khan. Rashid says the name is derived from the old Turkic word kubuk, which meant "rotten tree" (because Kipchak's mother gave birth to him in a rotted out tree). Oghuz Khan later stationed the Kipchaks in their current homeland to keep an eye on the rebellious Itbarak tribe. I also found this more modern explanation online: The word Kipchak etymologically ascends to Türkic ku-chak, which consists of two roots: ku (ku~kub~kuba) 'red', 'pale', 'white - red', 'light', and chak, meaning Sak~chak, the ancient name of Türks (instead of Iranian speaking tribes, as is wrongly asserted by some Indo-Europeists). Kuchak - 'White Sakas', -chak can be identified also with a respectful-diminutive affix -chyk. The word ku is applied also as 'Swan', also called ak kosh 'white bird'. Kuu 'white', 'white bird' makes another ethnonym with a word kiji~keshe 'man', Kuukiji 'white people', 'Swans' (Russ. 'Lebedinets'). The word ku ~kuu is applied with a word man as Kuman~Kumandy. Compare also men in a word Turkmen. In Western Europe the word Kuman is used instead of ethnonym Kipchak. Until now, the second part of this word -man is not yet unequivocally etymologized.
The Chinese also described the Kipchaks as having red hair and pale skin, so this explanation of the name might make sense. It would also explain the name Cuman. Here's the website: www.tur.freeservers.com/rich_text_1.html
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Post by benzin on Jun 14, 2011 10:26:29 GMT 3
Im not sure if this is related too but there might be some link between kipchaks and the family name chak (written as csák) its one of the oldest hungarian noble families. Their origin is unknown, they are related with the family of Ákosh wich is also a name of unknown origin, but you wrote up there that ak kosh means white bird, there might be a relation, its pronounced the same way exactly. The Chaks (csák) were of jewish religion originally, and probably from one of those kabar tribes who left khazaria and became part of the foundation of hungary. Also Lebedinets - swan may refer to Lebedias, hungarian tribe on the northern shores of the black sea around the 6,th century.
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Post by merlkir on Jun 14, 2011 10:55:28 GMT 3
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Post by snafu on Jun 14, 2011 20:16:01 GMT 3
Hmm..that's what I get for not reading the whole site I guess. Still, they could be right about the linguistics of it.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 15, 2011 18:09:59 GMT 3
LOL I loved this one ;D ;D
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 15, 2011 18:11:13 GMT 3
Seriously, as Rashid ud-din explained, the name Qypchaq is related with the word Qïp (Kıp) meaning "Hollow", "Empty". It is also where the name of the Gobi Desert comes from.
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Post by ancalimon on Jun 15, 2011 18:22:10 GMT 3
Seriously, as Rashid ud-din explained, the name Qypchaq is related with the word Qïp (Kıp) meaning "Hollow", "Empty". It is also where the name of the Gobi Desert comes from. Yes we have KOF in Turkish meaning hallow. For example people from Elazig call people from Malatya as KOFÝK meaning hallow-empty inside. Anything that's hallowed out is KOF So we may assert that KIP could be related to both "KOF" and "CUP" We can also say that Turkish KAP (catch- catch and contain within) is also related to this KIP What's ÇAK though
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 16, 2011 1:31:02 GMT 3
Indeed, I think Turkish Kof comes from Old Turkic Qïp, but I don't know if it's related with Turkish Kap and I find it unlikely that it is related with the English word Cup.
As for the suffix -čaq, I don't know, yet it appears in some more ethnonyms such as Qrïmčah кърымчах (Kırımçak).
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Post by snafu on Jun 16, 2011 2:12:37 GMT 3
Maybe chak referred to a specific type of tree. If Rashid was right about the name it meant "hollowed out tree."
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Post by ancalimon on Jun 16, 2011 13:11:23 GMT 3
Indeed, I think Turkish Kof comes from Old Turkic Qïp, but I don't know if it's related with Turkish Kap and I find it unlikely that it is related with the English word Cup. As for the suffix -čaq, I don't know, yet it appears in some more ethnonyms such as Qrïmčaq кърымчах (Kırımçak). CUP comes from from PIE *keup- "a hollow". So it's perfectly possible that they are related. www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cupTurkish KAFA (head) might be related to this KOF as well.
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Post by benzin on Jun 16, 2011 13:47:57 GMT 3
Nice find again. Kob-kop might had the same meaning : head in hungarian as kof in türkic.
kob(ak) : head kop(asz) : bald kop(onya) : skull kap(tat) : climbing up to sw.
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Post by ancalimon on Jun 16, 2011 15:35:42 GMT 3
Nice find again. Kob-kop might had the same meaning : head in hungarian as kof in türkic. kob(ak) : head kop(asz) : bald kop(onya) : skull kap(tat) : climbing up to sw. The thing is that my family called themselves "KAPAK" yet according to my grandfather (his own grandfather told it to him), their ancestors migrated to Elazig - Kh'arberd in Turkey from Khorasan (as far as I remember it was Khorasan) and colonized it. They were the first ones to settle there and thus they were called KAPAK meaning they "covered" it. They "settled" there. So I guess in the case of my family name, KAPAK meant "settle". Today our surname is KABAKLI. Today KABAK means head, bald, skin on the head and pumpkin, marrow in Turkish. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El%C3%A2z%C4%B1%C4%9FKAPAK ATMAK: to settle, to reach someplace first. So is there a possibility that Kýpçak meant something close to "settler" (in general) ? Here are some ProtoTurkic words which might be related. Indeed, I think Turkish Kof comes from Old Turkic Qïp, but I don't know if it's related with Turkish Kap and I find it unlikely that it is related with the English word Cup. As for the suffix -čaq, I don't know, yet it appears in some more ethnonyms such as Qrïmčaq кърымчах (Kırımçak). Lets not forget the Takshak. The descendants of Nagavansh who were prehistoric rulers of India. www.jatland.com/home/Takawww.jatland.com/home/Taka#Tartar_and_Naga_connectionwww.jatland.com/home/Taxakawww.jatland.com/home/Nagavanshwww.jatland.com/home/Tukhara
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Post by Ardavarz on Jun 17, 2011 1:27:08 GMT 3
Something interesting occured to me while following this discussion:
The Russian name for Cumans was "Polovtsy" (sg. Polovets"). It is usually derived from Russian adjective polovyi - "pale yellow", paralleled by Turkic quba ~ quma - "yellow-red" as possible explanation of tha name "Cuman" (= blond). But then there is also Russian word polyi - "hollow" which would be an analogue of the Turkic qïp (kıp) of the alternative name Qypchaq.
Is there some intrinsic relation between yellow colour and the notion of hollow or emptiness then?
Some possibilities (not necessarily related): Gobi could be "empty" (i.e. "wasteland, desert") or "yellow" (like sand - qum) country. Also the Yellow sect of Lamaism (Gelug) in Tibet and Mongolia is based on Buddhist theory of emptiness (i.e. non-substantiality of phenomena). Or maybe just coincidences?
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Post by ancalimon on Jun 17, 2011 2:00:30 GMT 3
Something interesting occured to me while following this discussion: The Russian name for Cumans was " Polovtsy" (sg. Polovets"). It is usually derived from Russian adjective polovyi - "pale yellow", paralleled by Turkic quba ~ quma - "yellow-red" as possible explanation of tha name "Cuman" (= blond). But then there is also Russian word polyi - "hollow" which would be an analogue of the Turkic qïp (kıp) of the alternative name Qypchaq. Is there some intrinsic relation between yellow colour and the notion of hollow or emptiness then? Some possibilities (not necessarily related): Gobi could be "empty" (i.e. "wasteland, desert") or "yellow" (like sand - qum) country. Also the Yellow sect of Lamaism (Gelug) in Tibet and Mongolia is based on Buddhist theory of emptiness (i.e. non-substantiality of phenomena). Or maybe just coincidences? A clay pot maybe? www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3_CAVv8gDIOr a sea of sand (which was a great sea once) Also not related but for the record:
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