Why did the Turks acquire many foreign words?

[abdulhay]

I wonder why the turks of central asia also ottoman turks implimented many forgein words from persian and arabic, why did they do this ,couldnt they have developt thier own language?

why was many words replaced with persian or arabic equvilant

[sarmat]

Jun 8, 2010 1:27:12 GMT 3 abdulhay said:

I wonder why the turks of central asia also ottoman turks implimented many forgein words from persian and arabic, why did they do this ,couldnt they have developt thier own language?

why was many words replaced with persian or arabic equvilant

It's a common pattern throughout the history everywhere. in all the regions. For some reasons, the human nature is eager to adopt something that has been already invented before instead of creating something new.

Persian and Arabic civilizations seemed to be more "advanced" and elaborate, Turkic languages simply lacked the vocabularly for many terms that were already in Persian and Arabic, so the reception of those words followed.

And it's not only with Turks and Persian. In Europe it's the same thing, but all the European "barbarians" adobted "advanced" words from Latin and Greek, in the East surrounding nations adobted vocabularly from Chinese language (even now Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese words 50-60% Chinese in origin), etc.

[abdulhay]

It's a common pattern throughout the history everywhere. in all the regions. For some reasons, the human nature is eager to adopt something that has been already invented before instead of creating something new.

Persian and Arabic civilizations seemed to be more "advanced" and elaborate, Turkic languages simply lacked the vocabularly for many terms that were already in Persian and Arabic, so the reception of those words followed.

And it's not only with Turks and Persian. In Europe it's the same thing, but all the European "barbarians" adobted "advanced" words from Latin and Greek, in the East surrounding nations adobted vocabularly from Chinese language (even now Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese words 50-60% Chinese in origin), etc.

I guess u are right,'

what u say is logical,

but wasnt the main reason that turks converted to islam and u know islam is against nationalism,

so they thought persian arabic is accents of islam and they already exist so why not implment it instead of creating a new language,

how come russians have a developt language, russian didnt even exist until 1000 years ago and now today it has a rich vocubalary, I mean since kievan rus there hasnt been a earlier russian kingdom or has it?

[sarmat]

I think there were borrowings in Turkic languages from Iranic languages even before the conversion to Islam.

Regarding Russian, actually, it has a lot of borrowings from Latin and Greek, a lot of borrowings from other European languages like French and German and a lot of borrowings from Turkic languages.

I, actually, even opened a thread about the Turkic words in Russian language. It should be somewhere here...

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Sarmat, actually Arabic and Persian were not more "developed" than Turkic, because for example, the 12th century Qarakhanid Quran translations made in the Khaqaniyya dialect had 90% of the Arabic religious terms with Turkic equivalents. Though the Oghuz were a bit more, lets say, "backwards" or "under-developed" than the Qarakhanids and Uyghurs. That's why Oghuz has more borrowings I guess. The reason why Chaghatai has is because of the geography, right? And yes, there were borrowings in Old Turkic via various languages such as Chinese, Mongolian, Tokharian, Sanskrit, Soghdian, Khwarazmian, Persian, etc... And vice versa Which is very normal.

[hjernespiser]

The borrowing of words from one language to another has a lot to do with cultural issues, not anything particular about a language itself. Arabic was (still is) the language of religion. Persian was the language of art, philosophy, etc.. Turkish was the language of warriors.

[sarmat]

Jun 9, 2010 14:27:25 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

Sarmat, actually Arabic and Persian were not more "developed" than Turkic, because for example, the 12th century Qarakhanid Quran translations made in the Khaqaniyya dialect had 90% of the Arabic religious terms with Turkic equivalents. Though the Oghuz were a bit more, lets say, "backwards" or "under-developed" than the Qarakhanids and Uyghurs. That's why Oghuz has more borrowings I guess. The reason why Chaghatai has is because of the geography, right? And yes, there were borrowings in Old Turkic via various languages such as Chinese, Mongolian, Tokharian, Sanskrit, Soghdian, Khwarazmian, Persian, etc... And vice versa Which is very normal.

Well, I'm sure with enough motivation and efforts you can develop sufficient vocabularly in every language to translate the unknown words. But in many instances, Turks were influenced by unfamiliar Iranian, Arabic, Chinese etc. concepts and at that time it, for some reasons, was easier for them to adobt the foreign vocabularly rather than develop their own.

Of course the cultural exchange was going in both directions. Interestingly, such an important Chinese word and concept as heaven “V (tian) is a borrowing from Altaic people.

[abdulhay]

actually Arabic and Persian were not more "developed" than Turkic, because for example, the 12th century Qarakhanid Quran translations made in the Khaqaniyya dialect had 90% of the Arabic religious terms with Turkic equivalents.

I didnt know this, is this really true, at least the eastern branch of turki was developt.

I mean to write down the quran and translate it needs many advanced word of litteratur and poesi I think at least the bible is written in such form.

do u have source of this 90 procentage?

btw great qaghan do u know how many words the mediveal turkic dictionary contained of?

a lot of borrowings from Turkic languages.

really , like what words?

I, actually, even opened a thread about the Turkic words in Russian language. It should be somewhere here...

oh, interesting to read, where can it be found, under linguistic history I guess

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Well, I'm sure with enough motivation and efforts you can develop sufficient vocabularly in every language to translate the unknown words. But in many instances, Turks were influenced by unfamiliar Iranian, Arabic, Chinese etc. concepts and at that time it, for some reasons, was easier for them to adobt the foreign vocabularly rather than develop their own.

Indeed, Uyghur has a lot of Chinese and Soghdian-Sanskrit-Persian names used for Manichaeist and Buddhist terms, but in the Qarakhanid Quran translations and Mahmud of Kashghar's Diwanu Lughat al-Turk, we see that the Qarakhanids and some Turkic peoples such as the Qypchaqs were using mostly Turkic words for Arabo-Persian religious terms - and those Turkic words were already in use because we can see them in Old and Middle Turkic documents (such as Täŋri for Allah, Yükün for Islamic prayer, etc). But yes, the Qarakhanid Qurans also do have Arabo-Persian loanwords (such as Arabic Allah or Persian Farishte).

Of course the cultural exchange was going in both directions. Interestingly, such an important Chinese word and concept as heaven “V (tian) is a borrowing from Altaic people.

Yup

I didnt know this, is this really true, at least the eastern branch of turki was developt.

I mean to write down the quran and translate it needs many advanced word of litteratur and poesi I think at least the bible is written in such form.

do u have source of this 90 procentage?

The Rylands manuscript of these Qarakhanid Quran translations were recently published by the Türk Dil Kurumu (Turkish Association of Language). However they are only in Turkish and out of print now.

btw great qaghan do u know how many words the mediveal turkic dictionary contained of?

Mahmud of Kashghar's dictionary has around 8,000 words but he wrote that he did not include many words used by non-Muslim Turks.

I think the total amount of Old and Middle Turkic vocabulary can be found in Sir Gerard Clauson's An Etymological Dictionary of Pre-Thirteenth-Century Turkish, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1972. There are several such Old-Middle Turkic dictionaries published by Wilhelm Radloff, Ahmet Caferoğlu, Martti Räsänen and Gerhard Doerfer. There is also the recently-published Qypchaq Dictionary (acquired from Codex Cumanicus and various other Mamluk Qypchaq dictionaries prepared in Egypt) prepared by Recep Toparlı, Hanifi Vural and Recep Karaatlı: Kıpçak Türkçesi Sözlüğü, Türk Dil Kurumu Yayınları, Ankara, 2007.

[sarmat]

Jun 10, 2010 0:46:10 GMT 3 abdulhay said:

really , like what words?

I, actually, even opened a thread about the Turkic words in Russian language. It should be somewhere here...

oh, interesting to read, where can it be found, under linguistic history I guess

Please check this thread:

steppes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=board22&action=display&thread=1091&page=1

[ancalimon]

Sven Lagerbring thinks Persian had become a dialect of Turkish and explains the reason why in his book which was translated to Turkish (only). I might translate those parts to English if you like some time.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Get over with it man, that guy lived in the 18th century.

[abdulhay]

thanks for the responds guys

[ancalimon]

Jun 11, 2010 12:38:59 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

Get over with it man, that guy lived in the 18th century.

It doesn't change anything. History is history, books are books, words are words. Do you really think just because a historical knowledge is old makes it absolute? I think exactly the opposite.

He simply explains that during the time Turks ruled Persians, Persian changed into a dialect of Turkic. The book is named "İsveççenin Türkçe İle Benzerlikleri - İsveçlilerin Türk Ataları" Sven Lagerbring

from "Kaynak Yayınları"

Please read the book.

[hjernespiser]

It's like using Newton to refute Einstein.

Someone from the 18th century did the best he could with the data available to him. If he had the chance to access all the data compiled on the subject since the 18th century, he'd probably throw out his own theories.