Three civilizations of the steppes

[Subu'atai]

Khalkhas, specifically. Their "traditional" costume, or more correctly some parts of it (especially the headgears) is not native to the Steppes. Even 13th century Mongols didn't wear those.

Yeah, I guess I noticed that too, I don't like the Yin/Yang symbol on Mongolia's flag either.

Of course your Buddhism is very mixed with Pre-Buddhistic beliefs, like how our "folk Islam" is - most of it comes from ancient beliefs. And most of the Mongols I met believe both to Buddhism and to Tenger

Heh, I'm a Tengriist fanatic, spit on Buddhism as it has been used to justify genocide of my people in Dzungaria.

The scholars I know who went to Mongolia all told me that the Mongols can't produce any milk product except Airag. Did they lie to me?

Yes they did, here's a start: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_cuisine

Yes but their culture is still heavily steppe-nomadic oriented, more than for example the Uzbeks and Uyghurs are (I'm exluding the Kazakhs in Kazakhstan because they are heavily Russified, can't even properly speak their own language).

I always admired Kazakhs, not something I admit often. Just sad about the russification, lost majority of my respect for them. Nonetheless, we would all do well to learn how to insult specific individuals, not entire nations during arguments.

Dzungars/Mongolians are already constantly criticizing each other for being Sinofied or Russified - playing the infamous "Who is real Mongol game". None of which is good for the future of the steppes.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Yeah, I guess I noticed that too, I don't like the Yin/Yang symbol on Mongolia's flag either.

See ;D I don't know much about non-Khalkha Mongol clothing, but I guess they are different from Khalkhas and closer to the originals. Would be glad if someone can post some.

Heh, I'm a Tengriist fanatic, spit on Buddhism as it has been used to justify genocide of my people in Dzungaria.

I see. Well I'm not Muslim either ;D

Yes they did, here's a start: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_cuisine

Yeah checked it. But why would all those professors (they are all in different universities btw) lie to me? Maybe what they meant was that it wasn't as wide-spread and good as in Turkic cuisines?

I always admired Kazakhs, not something I admit often. Just sad about the russification, lost majority of my respect for them.

But beware that the Kazakhs under heavy Russian influence are those in "independent" Kazakhstan. The Kazakhs in Mongolia and East Turkistan have retained their original culture.

All the Kazakhs I met were from Kazakhstan, and a great deal of them didn't speak Kazakh but preferred Russian. Last month, during the New Year (Nevruz) celebrations in my school, I saw a big group of Kazakhs who all spoke in their own language. I was totally surprised and told them they were the first Kazakhs I saw speaking in Kazakh. They told me they were Kazakhs from Mongolia (Bayan-Ölgii) ;D

Nonetheless, we would all do well to learn how to insult specific individuals, not entire nations during arguments.

I didn't insult anyone or any culture/race Member Mongolulus claimed we were all "Persianised", I just showed a few examples of how Mongols have some non-Steppe elements in their culture.

Dzungars/Mongolians are already constantly criticizing each other for being Sinofied or Russified - playing the infamous "Who is real Mongol game". None of which is good for the future of the steppes.

And people should stop claiming that Turks of Turkey are non-Turkic/non-Altaic/non-Steppe.

[Subu'atai]

Hey I don't like that Lotus flower on the Kalmyk flag either (I prefered the pre-Russified gerfalcon and nine yak tails), but Dzungar rulers had their reasons, trying to use Buddhism to buy legitimacy as a recognised Khanate.

As for the professors, I'm not the one to ask about their ignorance obviously Best to ask them themselves how they managed to gain such an impression.

Yeah Kazakhs are an interesting bunch, I just don't really know what to do with them anymore though. Hard to admire them now, but I guess all people have their own vices and virtues.

Heh, btw you know as much as we can make peace between Mongols and Turks right at this second between ourselves, a split second later another Mongol and Turk are having the same arguments

Oh the steppes and our sh.t, no wonder we managed to make booze out of milk. We are one people who sure need to drink up!

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

As for the professors, I'm not the one to ask about their ignorance obviously Best to ask them themselves how they managed to gain such an impression.

Yeah, I'll ask all of them one by one ;D

Yeah Kazakhs are an interesting bunch, I just don't really know what to do with them anymore though. Hard to admire them now, but I guess all people have their own vices and virtues.

Well you can still admire the Kazakhs of Mongolia and East Turkistan

Heh, btw you know as much as we can make peace between Mongols and Turks right at this second between ourselves, a split second later another Mongol and Turk are having the same arguments

Indeed ;D

Oh the steppes and our sh.t, no wonder we managed to make booze out of milk. We are one people who sure need to drink up!

Haha so true ;D ;D ;D

[Subu'atai]

Heh yeah though I heard Kazakhs in Mongolia are returning to Kazakhstan soon as it's a developing at a rapid rate.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

That is very normal

[arnewise12]

(I'm exluding the Kazakhs in Kazakhstan because they are heavily Russified, can't even properly speak their own language).

is this true, I always thought kazakhs were very patriotic,

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Of course there are very patriotic Kazakhs (like our ex-moderator Bawirsaq), but all the Kazakhstani Kazakhs I met in my life (face-to-face) were Russified. Plus, from people I know who lived in Kazakhstan, I keep hearing the same stuff.

[Alanus]

Apr 5, 2009 20:46:03 GMT 3 mongolulus said:

what do you think about this?:

based on my present information the Eurasian Steppes can be divided into three main historical civilizations or macrocultures. "Scytho" refers to eurasian nomadism.

1. Scytho-shamanic (Bronze age - 18th century)

2. Scytho-oriental (2nd century B.C - present day)

3. Scytho-persian (745 A.D - present day)

It should be remembered that original "scythian" elements were preserved in both scytho-oriental and scytho-persian "civilizations".

I think you could apply much of Group 1 to the other groups. For instance, Animal art not only continued in all three but spread into other cultures, even western ones.

You have ignored some important infuences, from the Uralic cultures for instance.

You need a fourth group-- Scythio-European-- since, for some odd reason, you have discounted the many influences and interactions between the Scythians-Saka-Sarmatians-Alans and the Greeks, the Celts, the Thracians, the Dacians, the Goths, etc, etc. Slap Rome in there, heavily. The list is a long one, and it's European and goes way back to the copper age or earlier, actually the microlithic era.

As far as I can tell, these various "Scythio-Whatever" cultures were influenced by groups far beyond their geographical borders to a point where it's almost impossible to distinguish or kitty-corner them into a "catagory." Blame the silk road, the Pontic Sea, the Amber Road, and the Gade Gate.

[ceonni]

Representing tiers of cultural influences as "three civilizations" and each prefixed with "Scytho" makes no sense to me at all.

Rather, I'd like to categorize them as such:

1) Freydounian Period: This period is categorized by the Proto-Shamanians, the ancestors of the Turanians, Austroasiatics and Amerinds being indistinguishable from each other, and living in a pre-pastoral state before the introduction of Freydounian (in their case, Iranian and Turanian) equestrian culture. This period sees the father of the Iranian, Turanian and Sarmatian civilizations, the Freydounian Civilization being formed in the Turkmen Steppes.

2) The Sumero-Aryan Period: Freydounian (Hurrian, Sumerian, Aryan etc) Civilization matured into the Sumerian Civilization of the Mesopotamia. However, Sumerian Civilization is not a "root civilization", but a "foliage civilization" that was the outcome of the Freydounian Root Civilization. The same Sumerian period would see the Freydounian Root Civilization branch out into the Turanian, Iranian, and Sarmatian (Euro-Aryan) root civilizations. The T, I and S civilizations were not foliage civilizations for they had no tangible crystallized form like the Sumerian. However, what's sure is, the introduction of Turano-Freydounian elements into Proto-Shamanian territories produced an meztiso root civilization that is the Turano-Shamanian Civilization. This period also saw the Aryano-Sarmatian expansion through the horse. The indigenous Europeans, under the impact of Freydounian invasion, became Euro-Sarmatians distinctive from the Aryans that did not mix with Europeans, but with indigenous nations indigenous to today's Indo-Iranian lands.

3) Classical-Medieval Era: The Turanian Ascendency as a steppes root civilization. The Classical-Medieval civilizations though, were the foliage civilizations that were: Persian, Serindian, Sinitic, Indic, Greco-Roman. Beyond the lineage of, or at the border of the Freydounian cultural continent we also see other root civilizations like the Anatolio-Levanto-Semitic Civilization. Also, the German and Slavic root civilizations that were offshoots of the Sarmatian Root Civilization became ascendant at the end of the Classical Era, and eventually merged with the Greco-Roman foliage civilization and became the Euro-Sarmatian Foliage Civilization.

The end of the Classical era in the Sinitic sphere is no less dark than the end of Classical era in the Sarmato-Greco-Roman sphere. Although, in the Sarmatian sphere it got so dark that the Greco-Romans were overwhelmed by the Germans and Slavs. But in the Sinitic sphere, the Turanian Dark Age was quite brief. This thanks very much to the ironic re-enforcement of the Silkroad by the Turanians. The Silkroad connected the Sinitic with the Indic, and kindled the Indo-Buddhist Age in the Sinitic (why it didn't kindle the Sino-Confucian Age in the Indic was beyond me). So, while the Sarmatian foliage civilization was characterized by the meek religion of Roman and Byzantine Christianity which were not particularly enlightened, the Sinitic sphere was in fact further enlightened with the introduction of a meek religion of Buddhism, which brought Turanians and the indigenous Sinitics to a new height of social development.




4) Silkroad and Gunpowder Era: The Silkroad Era is not clearly distinguishable from the Medieval Era. Although it is important to note that by Silkroad Era I mean the latter part of the Medieval Era when the Levanto-Semitic root civilization bore fruit to the Islamic Foliage Civilization. The latter part of the Islamic Foliage Civilization saw the maturing of Turanian elements into Turco-Islamic Foliage Cultures. The Turanian Mongols, though once dominating the vast stretch of the Silkroad-Steppes cultural continent, could only give in to the further consolidation of Turco-Islamic and Sinitic foliage civilizations.

Also, the Silkroad Era saw more and more self-defined nations in clusters within a foliage civilization sphere.

The Gunpowder Era saw the consolidation of large and self-defined modern nations. Root civilizations became choked out by large and self-defined modern nations clustered around large foliage civilizations that don't leave many spaces in between.

The Turanians, suffocated by the over-inflation of foliage civilizations, made their last thrusts. The Turanian Manchus made a thrust into the Sinitic, but were instead entirely absorbed by the Sinitic. The hinterland Turco-Islamic Tatars and Turanian Oirats, Mongols became subdued by a meztiso Sarmato-Irano-Turanian foliage culture called the Russians.


5) Columbian Era: The Sarmatian Civilization just expanded like a supernova, consuming or subduing everything in its path.
The post-Columbian Era sees the meztiso Sarmato-Irano-Turanian foliage culture that is the "Orossians" (The Russian culture expanded to former distinctive Iranian or Turanian cultures through the "Soviet" empire, a latterday imitation of the Chinggisid empire), the Iranians, the Semito-Islamic, the Sinitic... raising their heads while their bodies and jaws are still submerged in the bog of the Sarmatian.

6) The Kyzyl-Elma Era: It begins from the Turanians' (and Turanian souls scattered throughout Orossian, Sarmatian, Iranian, Sinitic, and even New World spheres) rediscovery of spirit of vital social re-generation in a time of grave crisis of a completely secular, overstretched Sarmatian civilization that cannot draw connections between the mythical world and the scientific world.

[sarmat]

[Alanus]

Oh, yuh. For sure, for sure. Way ta go. Where are all those smily-faces, anyway? (oops!)