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Post by mongolulus on Apr 5, 2009 20:46:03 GMT 3
what do you think about this?:
based on my present information the Eurasian Steppes can be divided into three main historical civilizations or macrocultures. "Scytho" refers to eurasian nomadism.
1. Scytho-shamanic (Bronze age - 18th century)
Main features: "pure" nomadism, tengrism shamanism, deer stones, kurgans, kereksurs, square burials, khanate tribal organization, "animal" or scythian art, horse culture, tamghas, warrior culture etc.
Representatives: cimmerians, scythians, sarmatians, donghu, xiongnu, dingling, xianbei, ruruan, gokturk, genghisid mongolia, northern yuan, pre-colonial buryatia.
2. Scytho-oriental (2nd century B.C - present day)
Main features: chinese influence on government and culture, buddhism, indo-tibetan influence on religion and culture,
Representatives: southern xiongnu, toba wei, some elements of the gokturk and post-gokturk turks, khitans (liao dynasty), jurchen (jin dynasty), mongols (1279-1368 and 1576-1924 A.D), buryats and kalmucks, yugurs, tuvanese turks.
3. Scytho-persian (745 A.D - present day)
Main features: extensive arabo-persian influence, influence of agriculturalism and sedentarism, orientation towards the west.
Representatives: manichean uyghurs or the Uyghur empire, nestorian pre-genghisid turco-mongols like naimans and kerait, some mongol elements during the mongol empire, karakhanids, ghaznavids, seljuks and the rest of the well-known turco-islamic peoples and states including ottomans and tatars. also the islamicized mongols including chagataides, golden horde and ilkhanids and jalayrids. as well as mongolic muslims such as hazaras (shiite), dongxiang (sunni) and bonan.
It should be remembered that original "scythian" elements were preserved in both scytho-oriental and scytho-persian "civilizations".
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Post by tadamson on Apr 7, 2009 10:31:42 GMT 3
You seem to have missed out the Greek and, later, Indian inputs.
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Post by mongolulus on Apr 7, 2009 14:05:32 GMT 3
i was thinking what to do about the hellenic and indian influence on for example the kushans, hephthalites and turfanese culture. it is clear that the greek and influence only come via the territory of persia (to be more precise, the Achaemenid Empire). the territory of persia is loaded with symbolism. one should also not forget that the greek and indian cultures were very similar to the persian in terms of language, race and religion. the aforesaid influences Never came from the western steppes nor from china, but always through Persia. that is why i had to put the hellenic and indian-influenced steppe peoples under scytho-persian.
by the way, there are many peoples i have left out in the "representatives" section. in scytho-shamanic one should also include the ancient magyars and bulgars and maybe the early yuezhi. and to the "main features" of scytho-shamanic one should also add balbals and yurts. in the scytho-oriental classification one should not forget to include the kara-kitai empire and the dzungar khanate.
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Post by mongolulus on Apr 7, 2009 14:18:02 GMT 3
i, as a mongol, have immense admiration for the scytho-persian "civilization". it is great and beautiful, and i wish that our mongolia could have absorbed some of its influence. it is great and enviably wonderful.
on the other hand, turanists should not overlook the significance of the scytho-oriental culture (i'm not buddhism by the way). there is a tendency among some to dismiss mongolian culture as being simply tibetan or chinese. this is wrong because mongolia only absorbed sino-tibetan influences and combined it with its own centuries old culture (which was always preserved). modern mongolian culture is a direct continuation of the yuan dynasty, and in a broader sense a unique representative of the 2000 year old scytho-oriental "civilization".
as for scytho-shamanic, alas, that great culture has died out. we cannot find a living representative. the days of the tengri khans are gone. all we have left are the Darkhads (northern mongolian black shamanists untouched by buddhism) who, being economically poor, likewise preserve an impoverished remnant of the glorious scytho-shamanic culture. the Darkhads make no balbals or deer stones, do not have a living tradition of animal art etc (that is, they don't have the "bigger" aspects of scytho-shamanic culture).
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Post by mongolulus on Apr 7, 2009 14:21:22 GMT 3
to turks,
do not forget that you were scytho-oriental in the past, too.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 7, 2009 19:39:04 GMT 3
LOL. Only a few were  And what is this "Scythian" love? There were nomads before Scythians  |
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Post by mongolulus on Apr 8, 2009 14:24:17 GMT 3
yes, i know there were few but the important fact is that they were. it's quite an interesting contrast to the present day turkish identity. it comes as quite a shock to those who would imagine the turks are absolutely a "middle-eastern" people. neither iranians, neither the indians, neither the slavs or germans have ever been influenced culturally by the far-east. turks were. they even produced buddhist scriptures in orkhon script (see www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/features/silkroad/turkiclge.html). yes, i know there are problems surrounding the word scythian. but i have to admit i'm occidentally biased. that is, scythians are the first major steppe people to be described in Classical Antiquity (i repeat, classical antiquity) by the founder of modern history Herodotus. and there is no denying the similarities between scythian and early turkish culture. scythia can also be used as a general word for the steppe. but if there's a better word than "scytho-", then I suggest you give us your advice. |
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Post by sarmat on Apr 8, 2009 21:02:50 GMT 3
yes, i know there were few but the important fact is that they were. it's quite an interesting contrast to the present day turkish identity. What do you mean by "Turkish identity" ? Do you refer exclusivery to the people from the republic of Turkey? If yes, then it's not surprising at all that they do not remember that much of any Chinese influences etc. Looks like an Ancient Uighur book |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 9, 2009 0:33:38 GMT 3
Yes there were a few Chinese influences, we still have one or two Chinese words in Anatolian Turkish, but in overall, Chinese influence is not significant when compared with Iranic, for example. Yet, the Chinese were way more influenced from the Turks, their entire Heaven cult and imperial ideology came from Turkic nomads (unlike to common thought which claimed vice versa). And yes Buddhism was known to the Kök Türüks via the Chinese for a short time during Taspar Qaġan's reign, but the larger amount of Buddhist influence came from the Soghdians and the later Tokharians. In fact, Buddhism reached China via the Iranic-Tokharian city-states of Turkistān, so we can say the Indo-European influence among early Turkic peoples was much more than the Chinese influence. We got this entire term called Steppe, I mean you can just have a look at the forum's name  That is Irq Bitig, a fortune-telling book written in Turkic Runic, found at Dunhuang, probably from the early period of Turfanese Uyġurs. |
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Post by tadamson on Apr 9, 2009 10:28:43 GMT 3
yes, i know there were few but the important fact is that they were. it's quite an interesting contrast to the present day turkish identity. it comes as quite a shock to those who would imagine the turks are absolutely a "middle-eastern" people. neither iranians, neither the indians, neither the slavs or germans have ever been influenced culturally by the far-east. turks were. they even produced buddhist scriptures in orkhon script (see www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/features/silkroad/turkiclge.html). yes, i know there are problems surrounding the word scythian. but i have to admit i'm occidentally biased. that is, scythians are the first major steppe people to be described in Classical Antiquity (i repeat, classical antiquity) by the founder of modern history Herodotus. and there is no denying the similarities between scythian and early turkish culture. scythia can also be used as a general word for the steppe. but if there's a better word than "scytho-", then I suggest you give us your advice. Well if you want to restrict yourself to the horse riding nomads the term "pastoral nomad" is appropriate, but most academics use "steppe peoples" or similar as an inclusive term. nb Turkic peoples are "Central Asian" rather than "Middle Eastern". Iranian, Indian and Germanic (particularly Gothic) cultures all show strong 'Eastern' cultural influence. And many Eastern cultures show strong Iranian influence. The first steppe people described by Herodotus were the Cimmerians. |
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Post by mongolulus on Apr 9, 2009 16:28:20 GMT 3
(ok, this post might be a bit illogical. mainly for fun.) Persia has dominated the culture of the Turkic speakers (excluding the tuvans) from the altai mountains to the mediterranean shores. and these turkic speakers were and are far more numerous than the mongols or manchus. sure, you may find one or two chinese words or some other oriental influence but it's only a small percentage, not even one percent. it's not even one raisin in a pie. Persia dominates the sons of the steppe. when we easterners see turks (from kazakhs and uyghurs westward) we are reminded of some romantic image of arabia (probably influenced by watching aladdin, or the mummy, or maybe reading the arabian nights). your cities, your buildings and mosques, your faces, your clothes, your "maqamic" songs, your religion and yes, your geographic location all produce an image of the classic middle-eastern people. how different they are from us! so, to turks again, be careful when you come to mongolia calling mongols your brothers. because mongols are very few and a very weak nation now (and therefore angry and revengeful). mongols belong to a very different steppe-oriental civilization and will take your friendly approaches as a hostile attack on their endangered culture. "they come smiling but destroy your culture in the end". "they come praising your land, but use the orkhon inscriptions as an excuse to drive you out". mongols haven't forgot how the persianised turks swallowed up the mongols of the chagataids, golden horde and ilkhanids. mongols were like salt thrown into the sea. so any attempt at central asian unity is going to be clouded by the catastrophic clash of the two civilizations (steppe-oriental and steppe-persian). yes, there is quite some drama involved in this "three civilizations of the steppe" business. |
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Post by sarmat on Apr 9, 2009 18:16:02 GMT 3
when we easterners see turks (from kazakhs and uyghurs westward) we are reminded of some romantic image of arabia (probably influenced by watching aladdin, or the mummy, or maybe reading the arabian nights). your cities, your buildings and mosques, your faces, your clothes, your "maqamic" songs, your religion and yes, your geographic location all produce an image of the classic middle-eastern people. how different they are from us! Sorry, but this is a gross oversimplification. With the same success one could say looking at Mongols that "your faces, your temples, your clothes all produce an image of classical Chinese people." Is that true? I don't think so. Central Asia was influenced by Islam of course, but that doesn't make local people "Middleasterners" that's for sure. And they have very different mentality from the Middleasterners. so, to turks again, be careful when you come to mongolia calling mongols your brothers. because mongols are very few and a very weak nation now (and therefore angry and revengeful). mongols belong to a very different steppe-oriental civilization and will take your friendly approaches as a hostile attack on their endangered culture. "they come smiling but destroy your culture in the end". "they come praising your land, but use the orkhon inscriptions as an excuse to drive you out". mongols haven't forgot how the persianised turks swallowed up the mongols of the chagataids, golden horde and ilkhanids. mongols were like salt thrown into the sea. so any attempt at central asian unity is going to be clouded by the catastrophic clash of the two civilizations (steppe-oriental and steppe-persian). I don't want to heart anybody's feelings, but all the talks about the brotherhood and unity are just declarations among a few passionate individuals among rather a passive masses of people who don't care about such things at all. All the Central Asian states have their own agendas and honestly nobody wants to take that unity seriously, unless they would achieve a total domination in such a unity, which others wouldn't support of course. Needless, to say that majority of the Central Asian people don't want to have to do anything with Mongols, dispite all the obvious, historical, cultural and blood connections. So, any kind of talks about such a unity is rather an utopia, but not a reality. |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 10, 2009 12:56:06 GMT 3
(ok, this post might be a bit illogical. mainly for fun.) Persia has dominated the culture of the Turkic speakers (excluding the tuvans) from the altai mountains to the mediterranean shores. and these turkic speakers were and are far more numerous than the mongols or manchus. sure, you may find one or two chinese words or some other oriental influence but it's only a small percentage, not even one percent. it's not even one raisin in a pie. Persia dominates the sons of the steppe. when we easterners see turks (from kazakhs and uyghurs westward) we are reminded of some romantic image of arabia (probably influenced by watching aladdin, or the mummy, or maybe reading the arabian nights). your cities, your buildings and mosques, your faces, your clothes, your "maqamic" songs, your religion and yes, your geographic location all produce an image of the classic middle-eastern people. how different they are from us! so, to turks again, be careful when you come to mongolia calling mongols your brothers. because mongols are very few and a very weak nation now (and therefore angry and revengeful). mongols belong to a very different steppe-oriental civilization and will take your friendly approaches as a hostile attack on their endangered culture. "they come smiling but destroy your culture in the end". "they come praising your land, but use the orkhon inscriptions as an excuse to drive you out". mongols haven't forgot how the persianised turks swallowed up the mongols of the chagataids, golden horde and ilkhanids. mongols were like salt thrown into the sea. so any attempt at central asian unity is going to be clouded by the catastrophic clash of the two civilizations (steppe-oriental and steppe-persian). yes, there is quite some drama involved in this "three civilizations of the steppe" business. You Mongols wear Manchu dress, believe in Tibetan Buddhism, can not produce any milk products except airag (no cheese, no butter, etc) but call us "Persianised" "Persianised" means someone assimiliated into the Persian culture. We are not, only a few were. I think the Qazaqs and Qyrgyz are more "steppe-folk" than you Mongols are. At least theyu wear true nomadic dresses ;D |
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Post by Subu'atai on Apr 17, 2009 15:41:17 GMT 3
Brother, I had that same mentality once. Hell the first Persian/Iranian I met was Zoroastrian, and he was one of the best blokes I've ever met. I admired his spirituality, his history, his culture, his people, and incredible architecture. I left out all the bad stuff because I just taken in by his genuinity. I always stood up for Persia/Iran since then, especially against the racist Anglo-Australians.
I was completely caught off guard however, when I tried to make friends in a Muslim Iranian community as a Mongol. Instead, they all made enemies with me, and as a result I ended up finding every bad thing about Iran including Arab conquest, combined Anglo/Soviet invasions, boy-loving 'catamites' in cultural history, even favored the Greek story in regards to the Thermopylae.
So I'm pretty much back at square one - in being indifferent to them. Guess I have a love/hate relationship with Iranians at the moment.
Khagan, if you wish to insult one person there is no need to insult an entire race of people to get to him. In humble response:
1) Manchu influence - Depends which tribe you are refering to.
2) Buddhism - Bor Chono and me being here as Tengriists yet we are ALL buddhists?
3) Milk products - Just Airag? I have to say that is a rather ignorant statement.
4) Qazaqs and Qyrgyz - Majority of steppefolk still living a nomadic life are still in Mongolia, not those countries.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 18, 2009 14:10:03 GMT 3
I didn't mean to insult any race, what I wrote are plain facts, right?  Khalkhas, specifically. Their "traditional" costume, or more correctly some parts of it (especially the headgears) is not native to the Steppes. Even 13th century Mongols didn't wear those. Of course your Buddhism is very mixed with Pre-Buddhistic beliefs, like how our "folk Islam" is - most of it comes from ancient beliefs. And most of the Mongols I met believe both to Buddhism and to Tenger ;D The scholars I know who went to Mongolia all told me that the Mongols can't produce any milk product except Airag. Did they lie to me? Yes but their culture is still heavily steppe-nomadic oriented, more than for example the Uzbeks and Uyghurs are (I'm exluding the Kazakhs in Kazakhstan because they are heavily Russified, can't even properly speak their own language). |
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