ethnic origin of Khwarazmian

[arnewise12]

whats the ethnic origin of Khwarazmians, are they turkic or persian,

[keaganjoelbrewer]

The Khwarazm-shah dynasty of the 11th to 13th centuries was founded by a Turkish servant of the Great Seljuk sultan. His name was Anush Tigin. The leadership that descended from him was therefore Turkish. But the culture of Khwarazm was highly Persianised, more akin probably to that of Khurasan than to anything Turkish per se. The Turks had a marvellous capability to adapt to other cultures, and this seems to be what happened with medieval Khwarazm.

I think it suffices to think of Khwarazm as a mixture of Turk, Persian and nomad elements from the north, although the perceptions of racial difference still remained (in the 12th century for example there were racial problems in the armies of Sultan Shah and his mother Terken Khatun).

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

The native Khwârazmians were not Turkic nor Persian, they were a distinct Eastern Iranic people. The last ruling dynasty of the region that became independent in the 12th century was of Türkmen origin.

[arnewise12]

The native Khwârazmians were not Turkic nor Persian, they were a distinct Eastern Iranic people. The last ruling dynasty of the region that became independent in the 12th century was of Türkmen origin.

if the khwarazmian dynasty were of turkmen origin, were the soldiers also that, I mean, did the oghuz support the khwarazmian shahdom

[Temüjin]

the majority of the Khwarazmshah Army were Qangli Turks.

[arnewise12]

the majority of the Khwarazmshah Army were Qangli Turks.

who are the qanglis ? do u have information about them

[keaganjoelbrewer]

The Qangli Turks were an eastern branch of the Kypchak Turks who lived north and north-east of the Caspian Sea. To the best of my knowledge the Qanglis disappeared after the Mongol expansion in the 1220s. They were probably either destroyed or subsumed by the Mongol armies.

The best source for information about the Qanglis is probably Rashid ad-Din. There is only one English translation, made by Wheeler Thackston, and it's out of print and d**ned hard to find.

[sarmat]

Qangli are Turkic people which appeared as a result of intermingling between Pecheneg, Oguz, and Kypchak tribes north of Aral Sea. Some of the moved to the area near Issyk-Kul lake in the 12th century and later were destroyed by Mongols.

Overall Qangli played a very important role in Qwarezmian empire. There is now a Qangli clan in the Great Horde of Kazakhs. Uzbeks also have Qangli tribe.

There also might be a connection between the ancient people of Kangju and Qangli.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangju

[Subu'atai]

Nov 1, 2008 22:08:34 GMT 3 Temüjin said:

the majority of the Khwarazmshah Army were Qangli Turks.

I would have thought just their leaders were.

[ALTAR]

Khwarazmshah had a disadvantage against Mongols like Qipchaq-Oguz Conflict inside of the army and dynasty. Qipchaq Elite(Sultans Mother, other brothers and also Sultans himself) was against Jalaluddin Menguberdi and Temur Malik who are the head of Oghuz branch.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Nov 25, 2008 11:01:13 GMT 3 Subu'atai said:

I would have thought just their leaders were.

No, an important part of the army was composed of them.

[Subu'atai]

Then we can conclude that maybe the 250,000 out of 500,000 or something in the Khwarazm army were Turks who caused casualties amongst the 200,000 Mongols and the other 250,000 Persians were just squishie bugs ;D

I'm kidding I'm kidding hehe

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

LOLOL ;D ;D ;D

[Azadan Januspar]

LOL I was thinking that they never told of Persian took part on that clash. and it was Sultans army of Turks that caused casualty on midgets army and vice versa. LOL joking ;D ;D

[tadamson]

This is a very complicated thing to answer quickly but..

#1 Khwarizam is a place not an ethnic group

#2 Khwariam shah is the title used by a very successful, but short lived, state.

#3 Armies were very varied and raised from many different groups.

The Shah, his emirs, their families, friends and ghilman/mamluks - all equipped as armoured cavalry with bows and assorted melee weapons. These were mostly of mixed Turkic-Iranian origins.

The city leaders (who often decided to defend their own walls and only sent token units) of the big rich cities who could supply infantry, cavalry, artillery (for sieges) etc. Some of these were kings in their own right.

Allied tribal forces (nomads who lived between the cities and were occasionally nominal subjects of several rulers) of Qipckaq, Quangli and other Turks plus pooer Turkoman bands.

Large temporary groupings of 'mercenary' ghilman/mamlukes were often used. There seems to have been a huge number of such troops available (From India, Central Asia, Persia, Iraq) if you had the money and the Khwarizam Shahs were very rich. Even Jalal ad-Din in his recreation of the Khwarizam empire between the Mongol attacks raised tens of thousands.

'Allied' troops from the endlessly shifting alliances of the immediate pre Mongol period. Including Ghurid/Afghan troops, Quara Khitai troops, Persians, Iraqis, Indians, assorted Turks....

Prior to the Mongol invasions, the Khwarizan Shah had conquered most of Persia and destroyed the Ghurid Empire. Vast regions of modern Afghanistan, Pakistan and NW India then fell into the Empire (though most of India/Pakistan quickly reverted to Mamluk rule from Delhi).


All in all a very mixed army. The mixed, and frequently shallow, loyalty of the assorted contingents was a significant factor in the rapid collapse under Mongol assault, though a few heroic generals fought well and maintained troop loyalty.


rgds.

Tom..