|
|
Post by ryukyurhymer on Aug 27, 2008 12:56:45 GMT 3
The Soviets had Georgia SSR, Azerbaijan SSR, Turkmen SSR, etc
but Tatarstan was only an ASSR during the Soviet times. Only after the fall of the Soviet Union and the emergence of Russia did it become a Republic within the country.
There's more Tatars than say Kyrgyz, Turkmen and Moldovans, yet their areas were promoted to Republic status while Tatarstan was a level lower?
|
|
|
|
Post by ALTAR on Aug 27, 2008 13:23:41 GMT 3
There are many reasons of it.
Firstly, Tatars have been still living in different parts of Russia as distributed like in the Tsar and Soviet Era. They arenot exact majority by population in Tataristan too. In all Russia, Tatars current population is 7.500.000. However only %25-30 of them has been living in their homeland and republic.
On the other hand, Russia has been applied his imperial policies against Tatars. From Tsar, Soviet Ear to Russian Federation Era, is never changed.
Tatars are the most well educated, intellectual, nationalist(Pan-Turkism was also borned in this region) group in Russia and they have more influenced everywhere. So that they are a bit dangerous for Russia. If they want independence from Russia, Russia can lose all of Idel-Ural Region. So that in Soviet Era, They had no SSR.
Today, this policy is still going on. Russians want to destroy Authonomic Republic and then convert it to a governorship which will be directly dependent to Moscow. Tataristan is very important for Russia Fedeation economy because energy resources, petrol industry etc. So Russians do everything for not losing Tataristan.
Russians make propagandas to Bashkir and Chuvashes against Tatars to divide Idel Ural Turks. Bashkir and Chuvashes are also Turks but they have anti-Tatar sentiment. Bashkirs are closer to Kazakhs with their nomadic life-style, It causes to clashes with Tatars city life. Tatars also have some feelings like that we are the boss of Idel-Ural:). Ethnic conlifcts are so deep now in Idel-Ural.
|
|
|
|
Post by Verinen Paroni on Aug 27, 2008 13:29:58 GMT 3
What are situations between Finnic and Turkic people in Idel-Ural?
I know just that Tatars and Finnics (Komis, Mordavians, Udmurtians, Maris) have good relationships with Tatars. But I dunno about Bashkirs and Chuvashes.
|
|
|
|
Post by ALTAR on Aug 27, 2008 16:53:52 GMT 3
I dont hear any conflicts between Finnic and Turk peoples of Idel-Ural.
I know that Tatars have good relations with Udmurts. Some of Udmurts were assimilated inside of Tatars by converting Islam and making intermarriages. They were called Besermen. They speak a Tatar dialect which has a huge Udmurt and Finn vocabulary.
Chuvashes are more closer to Mordvins and Mari people than their Turk brothers(Tatars, Bashkir).
The best threats for Turks of Idel-Ural are
- High Percentage Race-Mixing Btwn Slavs and Tatars in Tataristan(mostly in Kazan and other metropols)
- Tribal conflicts(Tatar vs Bashkir) and coldness btn Idel Ural Turks
- Moscows imperial and hegemony policies(such as provocations between Tatars and Bashkirs).
Bashkirs arenot majority(the thirdest ethnig group; 1st Russians, 2nd Tatars) in their republic. There is a huge Tatar population in Bashkir Republic. Bashkir Government make pressure against Tatars. They cooperate with Moscow and Russians in the republic. They ban the use of Tatar language in the education and public. They still try to Bashkırdicize Tatars with asimmilation policy. All of these provocations are directed by Moscow to divide Idel Ural Turks.
|
|
|
|
Post by sarmat on Aug 30, 2008 8:51:20 GMT 3
What are situations between Finnic and Turkic people in Idel-Ural? I know just that Tatars and Finnics (Komis, Mordavians, Udmurtians, Maris) have good relationships with Tatars. But I dunno about Bashkirs and Chuvashes. They have as good relations with Tatars as with other ethnicities within Russia. Russians are culturally more close to Finnics though because of the religion. |
|
|
|
Post by sarmat on Aug 30, 2008 9:13:25 GMT 3
Tatars are the most well educated, intellectual, nationalist(Pan-Turkism was also borned in this region) group in Russia and they have more influenced everywhere. So that they are a bit dangerous for Russia. If they want independence from Russia, Russia can lose all of Idel-Ural Region. So that in Soviet Era, They had no SSR. It's not true. All the SSRS were just created at the convenience of the Soviet leaders. In fact there sometime was very few logic at all in creation of any SSRs. Tatarstan was an Autonomous SSR within the Russian SSR. It very possible could become just a separate SSR for any kind of reasons, like Stalin's bad mood etc. In fact, the whole Central Asia was also just an Autonomous SSR within the Russian SSR until 1930th. Then it was divided for the sake of convenience into different SSRs. From the practical point of view. however, there was not any difference in Autonomous SSR or just SSR all were stictly ruled from Moscow. As about some ethnical policies i.e. use of the local language in the state bodies and education etc. it was almost the same for SSRs and Autonomous SSRs so like in Kazakh SSR or Uzbek SSR in Tatar autonomous SSR Tatar language had some official status. Today, this policy is still going on. Russians want to destroy Authonomic Republic and then convert it to a governorship which will be directly dependent to Moscow. Whatever Russians want, but they can't really do that. Tatarstan has perhaps the broadest autonomy in the Russian Federation now. And Moscow authorities have to comply with Tatar demands. Russians make propagandas to Bashkir and Chuvashes against Tatars to divide Idel Ural Turks. Bashkir and Chuvashes are also Turks but they have anti-Tatar sentiment. Russians now don't make any propaganda like this. It's false. And while it's true that during the Imperial Russia animosity between Bashkirs, Tatars, Chuvashs etc. were used to divide and conquer, the roots of these animosities are very deep in the complex history of interaction of all these people. |
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 30, 2008 12:26:35 GMT 3
If so, why Russia didn't allow Tatarstan to switch to the Latin alphabet?
|
|
|
|
Post by Verinen Paroni on Aug 30, 2008 12:31:20 GMT 3
What are situations between Finnic and Turkic people in Idel-Ural? I know just that Tatars and Finnics (Komis, Mordavians, Udmurtians, Maris) have good relationships with Tatars. But I dunno about Bashkirs and Chuvashes. They have as good relations with Tatars as with other ethnicities within Russia. Russians are culturally more close to Finnics though because of the religion. Well, Chuvashes are Orthodoxes also. And Maris and some Komis are Shamanistic.   And Ingrians are Lutherians. |
|
|
|
Post by sarmat on Aug 30, 2008 17:28:12 GMT 3
Well, Chuvashes are Orthodoxes also. And Maris and some Komis are Shamanistic. And Ingrians are Lutherians. I think you confused Ingrians with Ingrian Finns. Ingrian Finns i.e. resettlers to Ingria from Finland proper are Lutherans. However, indigenous Ingrians i.e. Izhorians are Orthodox. Komis are also Orthodox, with some tiny remnants of Shamanism. Some Maris however do indeed have an interesting faith which is a mixture of Orthodox beliefs with Volga-Finnic paganism. |
|
|
|
Post by sarmat on Aug 30, 2008 17:33:31 GMT 3
If so, why Russia didn't allow Tatarstan to switch to the Latin alphabet? Yeah, it's true. Latin alphabet was viewed as something which would make Tatarstan less close to Russia, that's why it wasn't not allowed. Russia wants to keep Tatarstan within the Federation no doubt. But what I meant is that there is no Russian propaganda like that Tatars should hate Bashkirs etc. |
|
|
|
Post by Verinen Paroni on Aug 30, 2008 18:18:25 GMT 3
Unfortunately just tiny...  There is alot of Maris who are not anykind of christians. Ingrian means orthodox and lutheran Ingrians both. And Ingria is legally part of Finland, similar way as Häme (Tavastia), Savo, Karelia and Kajania are. I agree with you that first there were only orthodox Ingrians, lutherans came later. |
|
|
|
Post by ALTAR on Aug 30, 2008 22:33:22 GMT 3
Whatever Russians want, but they can't really do that. Tatarstan has perhaps the broadest autonomy in the Russian Federation now. And Moscow authorities have to comply with Tatar demands. Putin claimed this policy to the press in an interview a few years ago. You can find the interview in İLYAS KAMALOV's PUTİN. I dont know if they published in Russian or any other language. Its the centralization of Russia like in the past. They use Bashkir nationalism to confront Tatars influence. If you keep on watching Bashkir's policies. They are all supported by Russians who are the first ethnic group in Bashkir Republic. I calimed historical and tribal conflicts about the point in my previous post. However these conflicts have been always used and using by Russia(Tsar, Soviet and current situation, it doesnot matter) |
|
|
|
Post by sarmat on Aug 30, 2008 23:32:31 GMT 3
Putin is indeed trying to centralize Russia. But the relations with Tatarstand largely has been intact so far. The agreement of 1994 about the delimitation of powers between the Russian Federation and Tatarstan is in force.
As about the Russian policies, I just meant that there is no outright Russian propaganda for hate between Tatars and Bashkirs. In fact, a lot of work has to be done by Tatar and Bashkir communities themselves to improve the relations between them regardless of any Russian policies.
|
|
|
|
Post by ALTAR on Aug 31, 2008 20:21:20 GMT 3
As about the Russian policies, I just meant that there is no outright Russian propaganda for hate between Tatars and Bashkirs. In fact, a lot of work has to be done by Tatar and Bashkir communities themselves to improve the relations between them regardless of any Russian policies. This the reason that why ethnic Russians in the republic support Bashkirs. Bashkirs banned Tatar language in education. And interestingly there is no reaction against Russian people, policies who are the colonizator of Idel Ural in Tsar and Soviet Era. Russians provocations doesnot lead to improvement of Bashkir tatar Relation Russia and Russians makes conflicts so deep for Bashkirs and Tatars. There were a lot of attacks and assasinations against Tatar peoples leaders in Bashkir Republic. But nobody catch them. Moscow find Chechen terrorists quickly but in Idel-Ural the jobs is getting slower in my opinion. It proves that Russia use this conflict for own aims. So there is a historical, cultural conflict between Tatars and Bashkirs. I believe that they can solve the problem with the dialogue. However, If Russia still using this conflicts with its political aims, It results in bad consequences for Tatars and Bashkirs. |
|
|
|
Post by sarmat on Sept 1, 2008 3:22:32 GMT 3
This the reason that why ethnic Russians in the republic support Bashkirs. Bashkirs banned Tatar language in education. And interestingly there is no reaction against Russian people, policies who are the colonizator of Idel Ural in Tsar and Soviet Era. Russians provocations doesnot lead to improvement of Bashkir tatar Relation Russia and Russians makes conflicts so deep for Bashkirs and Tatars. There were a lot of attacks and assasinations against Tatar peoples leaders in Bashkir Republic. But nobody catch them. Moscow find Chechen terrorists quickly but in Idel-Ural the jobs is getting slower in my opinion. It proves that Russia use this conflict for own aims. So there is a historical, cultural conflict between Tatars and Bashkirs. I believe that they can solve the problem with the dialogue. However, If Russia still using this conflicts with its political aims, It results in bad consequences for Tatars and Bashkirs. Well, nobody catches anti Tatar extremist in Bashkiria because of the local authorities which are very nationalistic. And a lot of Russians are complaining about that and some local Russian politicians became the victims of the attacks as well. However, Bashkirs in Tatarstan face the same problem, Bashkir schools were closed and many local Bashkirs forcibly registered as "Tatars." One of the reasons that Bashkir administration is so nationalistic is that there are in fact more Tatars in Bashkiria than Bashkirs and Tatar language is actually even more spread there than Bashkir. |
|
