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Post by sarmat on Oct 5, 2007 4:23:06 GMT 3
Let me clarify certain things here. When red russia dominated mongolia until 1991, they tried to destroy mongolian culture, language, everything that was mongol, as much as they could. Russians killed, tortured, burnt, stole, destroyed absolutley everything. A mongol keeping anything to do with the past was considered a nationalist or an enemy. He would be shot and his family would starve to death. Because of this russian policy people destroyed their own belongings out if fear. Now you cannot blame mongolian people for that. They did what they must do just to survive. Me, personally know my ancestors and theirs for 4 generations and not more. I wish I knew more but political pressure kept mongols to do unimaginable terrible things to themselves. Try to understand this!!! Yes, Russians and Soviets did indeed a lot of bad things. But why go to such extremes in blaming them in what they didn't do? I never heard that Russians performed such genocide in Mongolia as you described here, perhaps it was done by Mongolian communists not by Russians. On the contrary, the independent Mongolian state was created by the USSR, it was recognized by 2 decades only the USSR and got international recognition and the seat in the UN only due to the USSR. At least, Mongols had an independent state and talked in their native language there. Otherwise, there wouldn't be the Republic of Mongolia today, it would be some Menggu province of China with 10 millions Mongols and 100 millions Chinese there. And in some more decades they would forget that they are Mongols and speak only Chinese. And I'm not talking about huge investments and economy and cultural development which only became possible due to the Soviet aid.
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Post by sarmat on Oct 5, 2007 4:24:34 GMT 3
But wasn't that the Russian baron Ungern who kicked Chinese out of Ulanbataar? And weren't that the Soviets who saved Mongolia (both Outer and Inner) from Japan? Kazaks suffered from the Soviet-Russian colonization no less than Mongols (perhaps more), but don't forget that many of today's economy and infrastructure was also built during that period. And the Soviet period was not only bad, it had many of the positive things, too. As for the pressure issue, Kazaks were under the Russian colonization much longer than Mongols, but that didn't make us forget our tradition of ancestry and the memory of which tribes we belong to. The same with Kyrgyz and other Turkic people who had the same tradition of knowing their tribes. Yes, I agree with that
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Post by mediator on Oct 6, 2007 15:27:48 GMT 3
Let me clarify certain things here. When red russia dominated mongolia until 1991, they tried to destroy mongolian culture, language, everything that was mongol, as much as they could. Russians killed, tortured, burnt, stole, destroyed absolutley everything. A mongol keeping anything to do with the past was considered a nationalist or an enemy. He would be shot and his family would starve to death. Because of this russian policy people destroyed their own belongings out if fear. Now you cannot blame mongolian people for that. They did what they must do just to survive. Me, personally know my ancestors and theirs for 4 generations and not more. I wish I knew more but political pressure kept mongols to do unimaginable terrible things to themselves. Try to understand this!!! Yes, Russians and Soviets did indeed a lot of bad things. But why go to such extremes in blaming them in what they didn't do? I never heard that Russians performed such genocide in Mongolia as you described here, perhaps it was done by Mongolian communists not by Russians. On the contrary, the independent Mongolian state was created by the USSR, it was recognized by 2 decades only the USSR and got international recognition and the seat in the UN only due to the USSR. At least, Mongols had an independent state and talked in their native language there. Otherwise, there wouldn't be the Republic of Mongolia today, it would be some Menggu province of China with 10 millions Mongols and 100 millions Chinese there. And in some more decades they would forget that they are Mongols and speak only Chinese. And I'm not talking about huge investments and economy and cultural development which only became possible due to the Soviet aid. Russia really wasn't that bad to Mongolia, it just had an arrogant stance towards our country and was too focused on socialism which really bombed big time. But you can count some things as genocide such as Stalin's orders to kill 30,000 Lamas, and Stalin was definitely racist against Altaic Asian people within Russia and in its protectorates. But other than that, no biggy. Buddhism in Mongolia needed to go and I am thankful for the revolution for that, otherwise we would be stuck in the past like some medieval country like Tibet, oh nvm, it's not a country anymore, tells you something. So okay, we lost some national pride, which is huge, and some sovereignty but we gained a lot of good. We became independent and distinct from China, we had our own language and culture intact albeit with heavy Russian influence, almost no colonisation by Russians, semi-modern industry and infrastructure, 95% literacy rate, scientifically minded populace when atheism was status quo, a few citizens sent to space, and a peaceful conclusion when communism was over. So people who make a big stink about losing Buddhism, who cares? Good riddance.
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Post by sarmat on Oct 8, 2007 7:32:02 GMT 3
Russia really wasn't that bad to Mongolia, it just had an arrogant stance towards our country and was too focused on socialism which really bombed big time. But you can count some things as genocide such as Stalin's orders to kill 30,000 Lamas, and Stalin was definitely racist against Altaic Asian people within Russia and in its protectorates. But other than that, no biggy. Buddhism in Mongolia needed to go and I am thankful for the revolution for that, otherwise we would be stuck in the past like some medieval country like Tibet, oh nvm, it's not a country anymore, tells you something. So okay, we lost some national pride, which is huge, and some sovereignty but we gained a lot of good. We became independent and distinct from China, we had our own language and culture intact albeit with heavy Russian influence, almost no colonisation by Russians, semi-modern industry and infrastructure, 95% literacy rate, scientifically minded populace when atheism was status quo, a few citizens sent to space, and a peaceful conclusion when communism was over. So people who make a big stink about losing Buddhism, who cares? Good riddance. I basically agree with your post. But we should bare in mind that crazy Stalin was concerned with the elimination of all kind of priests and religious leaders and not only buddhist lamas. Everybody was prosecuted including Russian Orthodox priests and Muslim mullas. And if talikng about the number of men killed Russian priests undoubtely are on the first place. So, it was kind of more "social" genocide rather than ehtnic in this regard. We also shouldn't forget that "the great chairman and founder of the first socialist state" i.e. Lenin was a Mongol (Kalmyk) himself
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 9, 2007 19:43:50 GMT 3
He had only partly Qalmaq (Kalmuk/Oirat) origins.
Stalin murdered thousands of Turkic intellectuals too.
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Post by sarmat on Oct 9, 2007 21:39:11 GMT 3
He had only partly Qalmaq (Kalmuk/Oirat) origins. Right, his farther was a Kalmyk and his mother had zero Russian blood.
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Post by Bor Chono on Oct 12, 2007 16:42:01 GMT 3
Lenin had his revenge by killing Tsar & his family. Lenin`s grandfather was noble Halimag & was exicuted by Tsar`s order.
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Post by Bor Chono on Oct 12, 2007 16:43:56 GMT 3
We became independant thanks to Baron Ungern! We lost our ancient knowledges(=traditional medicine, beliefs & art) when our grandfathers were murdered.
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Post by sarmat on Oct 12, 2007 18:57:38 GMT 3
Lenin had his revenge by killing Tsar & his family. Lenin`s grandfather was noble Halimag & was exicuted by Tsar`s order. For some reasons he also killed thousands of his Kalmyk brothers.
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Post by sarmat on Oct 12, 2007 19:08:49 GMT 3
We became independant thanks to Baron Ungern! That's right. Ungern escaped to Mongolia with some White Russian troops. Actually, hundred thousands of Russians escaped from communism to Eastern Turkestan, Norhern China and even Afghanistan. However, the state created by Ungern was very fragile-one thing, and the second thing he wasn't Mongol himself, the third thing is also that nobody recognized Ungern's Mongolia, which still oficially was considered a part of China. Without the protection and support of USSR, Mongolia would be eventually overwhelmed by Chinese which happened to Eastern Turkestan and Tibet. However, Chinese didn't dare to touch Mongolian republic, because it was protected by the USSR. BTW interesting thing. You know, the government of Taiwan officially calls itself the Republic of China, meaning the Republic of China which existed before 1949 i.e. before communist revolution. So they still claim sovereignity over Mongolia and official maps of the Republic of China, published in Taiwan represent Mongolia as a Chinese province. The government of the Republic of China BTW never fully recognized the independence of Mongolia. That's why I can repeat again, that there wouldn't be the independent Mongolia without the USSR. It might be a strange but nevertheless a true fact.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 13, 2007 21:35:48 GMT 3
Yes, the Chinese have an obsession about that, thinking that every inch of soil touched by the Chinese troops in any time of history eternally belongs to China.
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Post by Subu'atai on May 26, 2008 16:20:39 GMT 3
-Oirads =Oirads(=Descendants of "Forest dwellers" )are strange ppl, because they didn`t wanted (=always resisted) to be controlled by Descendants of The Great Khaan, they chose their leaders themselves & fought against Royal blood. Their last Khaan Galdan wasn`t descendant of The Great Khaan. U know them as Djungars(=Zuun gar). We had a bloody history. But past is past my brother. We can only learn from our mistakes. Most of my Mongol mates now are either halh or hazara, and though yes, sometimes it angers me how things could have been different - division of the Altai angers me a hell of a lot more. Who knows what could have happened if we stayed united, perhaps our people would never had to face foreign influence in such a grand scale.
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Post by elbandito on Jul 30, 2008 5:18:33 GMT 3
Hard to stay united when us Khalkha Mongols are biased against our other brothers. That will first have to vanish, along with the arrogance stemming from the notion of "true Mongols". Chingis Khan was successful in incorporating various tribes into his fold because he advanced them without regards to their origins, but by their merits.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 30, 2008 20:18:13 GMT 3
That is so true indeed.
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Post by sharshuvuu on Sept 19, 2008 3:11:08 GMT 3
Bawirsaq, you are partly right in your characterization. Certainly people of diverse origins have been assimilated into the Russian ethnos. Chaadayev's name will ring a bell with anyone in this forum. Half of the current Russian population are descendants of Russified Finnic people (a fact proved by physiology). And so on.
However, people lived in the Russian empire and served the government without becoming Russians. The Baltic Germans were not Russians. Ungern-Sternberg was born in Graz, Austria, and lived in Estonia (in pre-rev. Russia, Estonia & Latvia were governed by Baltic German, not Russian, aristocrats, so it was easy to be a German there if you were of the nobility). He did not regard himself as Russian and was not regarded by Russians as one of them.
Sharshuvuu
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