|
Post by anda on Sept 11, 2006 2:42:19 GMT 3
When i was reading some historyforums, i found one questionable post regarding Modern Mongolia, specially about Khalkha Mongolians. Some people insisting that Khalkh Mongol is not Chinggis's Mongol or Mongolian language is not the language Mongols spoke during Chinggis Khaan's period.
We all know those statements are groundless and pure lie with some political motivation. Now mongol brothers don't get angry, i know your blood is boiling over. If chinese said that i just would say " *****" -you know what. Unfortunatly that assault is coming from our nomad brothers like kazakhs, turks, kalmyks and buryats. So what can we-Mongolians to do with that.
I was angry, but i decided to react by posting whatever available documents to give right information in English.
The term "Khalkha Mongol" is appeared late in XV century.
In year 1466, After death of Manduul Khaan, Batmunh Dayan Khaan son Manduukh Jonon, become Khaan of All Mongols at age of 7. Due his young age, Ismail taishi Tugtimur yonger brother of Bekersin ? muslim Uigur who installed Manduul as Khaan, was governing Mongols together with queen Mandukhai. When he reach to right age,in 1483 Batmunkh Dayan Khaan removed Ismail taishi Tugstimur. He reigned till he was 44. He united all Mongolia except Oirad Mongols
The Khalkhas are the largest group of Mongols in Mongolia. In fact, they are the core of all the Mongol peoples across North Asia. The Khalkha Mongol consider themselves the direct descendants of Genghis Khan and, therefore, the true preservers and defenders of Mongol independance and Mongol culture.
Khalkha can not be considered as ethnic group or clan. Initially it was organized purpose adminisitrative like person from New York city mya considered as New Yorker. -The Word "Khalkh" is first recorded XV century. Batmunkh Dayan Khaan created Khalkh Tumen (10000) out of 7 Tumen Mongols. He gave one tumen Mongols to his sons Alchibold and Gersenz and ordered-
- Khangai Khaand nutgalan suuj- Dwelling in Khangai Mountains (Central Mongolian Mountain range) Hari daisind chinu Khalkh bolson - Being a Shield ( in Mongolian "Khalkh" - ) against alien enemies. Haluun amind chinu Tushee bolson- Supporting to core of life. Irehiin uzuur, Harahiin haruul bolson - Be first in calling, Be Watchful in guarding Khalkh tumen chinu Ter bukhii beer ajaamuu- Be Khalkh Tumen (Shield ) from now on.
This was how Khalkh Tumen (10000) created.
|
|
|
Post by BAWIR$AQ on Sept 11, 2006 5:18:12 GMT 3
Modern Khalkha-Mongols have no relation to Genghis-Khan's "Mongols" - Kereits, Naimans, Jalairs, Qongyrats, Onguts, etc., who all spoke Turkic language (including Genghis Khan himself), and now are parts of modern Kazakhs Well, actually Genghis Khan was a Mongol himself, but a considerate number of people united under his rule in modern Mongolia had Turkic origins. Nayman and Kerey(t) people in the Genghis-era had Turkic names like Kuchluk (strong), Altun-Ashuk (golden ankle), Yedi-Tubluk (seven banners), Inanche-Bilge (faithful-wise), Elqutur (people+wild), Buyruk (command), Koksu-Sabrak, Togoril, Bektutmish, Erge Kara, etc. Genghis Khan's closest noyans from other tribes had some Turkic names like Otchigin (fire prince), Belgutay (sign), Munglik (sorrow), Alaqush-Digitkuri (motley bird), Kudus-Kalchan, etc. All these names can be found in the Secret history of Mongols. And yes, Naymans, Kerey(t)s, Jalayırs, and Qoñırats are now a part of modern Kazaks and other Turkic people. And a very big part. According to 1917 census of Kazaks (the last time Kazaks were counted by tribes), there were 830,000 Naymans, 460,000 Kereys, 310,000 Qoñırats è 130,000 Jalayırs. (M. Tynyshbaev. "Materialy k istorii kirgiz-kazakskogo naroda". Tashkent, 1925 g.)So 89 years ago there were 1,730,000 Kazaks from these 4 tribes, that is around 30% of the whole Kazak people in 1917. At the same time, in 1918, there were 540,000 Mongols in Mongolia ( source).
|
|
|
Post by Bor Chono on Sept 11, 2006 13:11:00 GMT 3
Halha(=Guardians) are mix of Mongol Tribes. The Tribe of The Great Khaan "Hiad Borjigin" is part of Halha. Leaders of Halha ppl were direct descendants of The Great Khaan. U know member Saran`s tribe is "Sartuul"="Seljuk"(they were brought here as craftsmen) this tribe is also part of Halha. Everyone who doesn`t know his origin but claims to be a real Mongol took "Borjigin"(=ppl of The Great Khaan) as tribe name. It was shame to change your tribe name, if U took name "Borjigin" it means U admit The Great Khaan as LORD. ;D U know there are 4 types of Mongols. -Halha =Guardians -Tsahar =Border watchers -Buryats =some say "Buruu harsan"=Looking back These 3 can be called as Mongols of The Great Khaan! because they were controlled by descendants of The Great Khaan. -Oirads =Oirads(=Descendants of "Forest dwellers" )are strange ppl, because they didn`t wanted (=always resisted) to be controlled by Descendants of The Great Khaan, they chose their leaders themselves & fought against Royal blood. Their last Khaan Galdan wasn`t descendant of The Great Khaan. U know them as Djungars(=Zuun gar). -Mother of The Great Khaan was Buryat, so they want to claim him(=maybe with Russian help) -Last Great Khaan with noble blood was Ligden, he controlled Tsahar Mongols so they also want their claim.(=maybe with chinese help) All 4 Mongols speak same lang "Mongolian". Who is claiming that The Great Khaan spoke Turk? btw Tsahar Mongolian tribe Onguts speak Mongolian not Turk origin lang.
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 11, 2006 14:29:04 GMT 3
I do not want to go off-topic but it is a well-known fact that the Öñgüt were the descendents of the Sahtuo Tujue and that they were Turkic-speaking Turks Anyway, let us stick to the topic - the origins of the Khalkha Mongols.
|
|
|
Post by BAWIR$AQ on Sept 11, 2006 16:20:04 GMT 3
Everyone who doesn`t know his origin but claims to be a real Mongol took "Borjigin" as tribe name. It was shame to change your tribe name, if U took name "Borjigin" ... One thing that Kazaks don't understand about Halha Mongols is this strange "tribe claming" (taking the name of the tribe as a family name). As I know, this is an entirely mordern thing of "choosing" your own tribe the way you wish. Now, about 1/5 of Mongols (!) suddenly became "Borjigins", not because they were Borjigins, but because they chose to. Could you please explain this practice of tribe claiming? No. Mother of Genghis was from Olkunut clan. As I remember, Olkunut was a sub-tribe of Onggirat (Qongirat) tribe.
|
|
|
Post by anda on Sept 11, 2006 21:37:12 GMT 3
Anyway, let us stick to the topic - the origins of the Khalkha Mongols. you are right let stick to the topic. I'll continue what i translated from Mongolian sites. ..........................................This was how Khalkh Tumen (10000) created. After that Khalkh Tumen was divided into 12 clans following manner ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- a) Alchibold's Khalkha divided into 5 otog 1. Jaruud 2. Baarin 3. Hongirad 4. Bayad 5. Ujediin Southern 5 Clan b) Gersenz's Khalkha divided his share of Khalkhas into his 7 sons families. After death of Gersenz, his queen Khatunhai divided 12 tribes to 7 sons otog in following manner- 1. Ashinhai received :- Uneged and Jalair tribes 2. Noyondoi recieved :- Besud and Iljigen tribes 3. Noomoh receieved Gorlos and Hersuud tribes 4. Amindural reveived Huree and Tsoohor tribes 5. Dari received Khokhuud and Hatagin tribes 6. Daldan hundlun received Tangud and Sartuul tribes 7. Camu buma received Urianhai tribe. ------------------------------------------------ - Ashinhai's otog- Jalair and Uneged- tribes divided into - 3 olhonud, 5 hotgoid hoshuu (hoshuu is administrative unit) 5 Hotgoid dwelled in present day area of Zavhan and Huvsgul province. Olhonuds are spread in are aof Zasagt Khan aimag , present day Hovd province in Western Mongolia. -Noyondoi's otog-Besud and Iljigen- tribes divided into -5 besud, 2 iljigen hoshuu. Iljigen 2 hoshuu is settled in Western Mongolia, Uvs province, well known as Iljigen Khalkh. Besuds are spread around Hovd and Govi-Altai privinces. - Camu-buma's Urianhai tribes were consisted 2 separate tribes. During Manchu Qing administration period, these tribes were rebellious in many occassions, so eventually distributed among other Khalkha Clans through out Mongolia. Present day Urianhai's live in Bayan-Olgi, Hovd, Govi-Altai, Hovsgul provinces. - Daldan hundlun received 2 foreign clan of Tangud and Sartuul tribes as his possession. Sartuuls are the descendants of Artisans from Central Asia (Qwaresm) moved to Mongolia by Chinggis Khaan after Fall of Qwaresm. As Sartuul became more Mongolian, Dayan Khaan included into Khalkha Mongol formation. Sartuuls became loyal to Mongol clan unlike Tanguds (descendants of Xia Xia-Hashin oron) who immigrated to South during internal war between Mongol khans- unrest of ZasagtKhan. Sartuuls were always governed by sons of Daldan Hundlun who is Borjigon (All Mongolian aritsocrats-taiji are from Chinggis' Khaan's line- Khiyad Borjigon clan). Today Sartuul Khalkhas are in sginificant number and divided into 22 subclans which dwell on Zavkhan province. -Noomoh and Amindural both receieved large collection of various tribes. In addition to that in 1639, when son of Tusheet Khan Gombodorj, Zanabazar become the first Bogd of Buddhist head of Mongols, All Khalkha Mongol Noyod (Khans) each one gave certain number of their subject to Zanabazar. These people formed Ikh Shavi khoshuu which concentrated around Khuree. All Khalkha Formation is large collection of various Mongol and Mongolized tribes, eventually it become major driving force of Mongolia. Under Khalkhas , there are over 400 tribes registered.
|
|
|
Post by Bor Chono on Sept 12, 2006 10:03:01 GMT 3
Could you please explain this practice of tribe claiming? First Mongolian astronaut Gurragchaa took tribe/family name "Sansar"="Space". For example my family is divided into 2 groups. Because there were 2 strong men -My father & My Ancle. (My mother knows her origin well, her tribe doesn`t matter) My Grandfather`s brother said to my father to take tribe name "Hii-chin"(="Creator"/"Maker" or maybe "Worker?") He said "I heard it from elders, they say it was little unknown group of craftsmen ppl" My family is from Hentii aimag,(I told U ppl that my Grandfather was quite respected person, First Hamba of Erdenezuu monestary, well he had 3 wives & 12 children, I don`t know what tribes were other 2 wives`s children) everyone who is from Hentii aimag was taking "Borjigin"(=ppl of Chinggis) so my father descided to be a "Borjigin". U must know that there are ppl with name "Borjigon" -they think it is right way to write this way. I like being Halha because "Halha" is like a title. If U recieve a honorable name "Guardian (of Culture,Religion,...etc)" U became a WARRIOR who try to keep everything what is called part of Mongol culture. (However, still I can get any imaginary name! because it is still allowed I guess. But I don`t want to. One of my friends took "Khagaan Burte"="King Burte" -sounds cool! but I don`t admire it, because U can`t prove your name!) Ppl must admit that Halha are most (religiously)peaceful & strong & creative(in songs & poems) among Mongols. ;D I guess Anda is Cristian.(For example Anda can take name "Mongol Cristian" as his tribe/family name & he can be a creator of a tribe/family So in Mongolia tribe starts with one male. hehehe..) If I`m not mistaking U are Guardian too.!? (Anda why don`t U introduce yourself!!! not here! In "Introduce yourself" page! ofcourse.)
|
|
|
Post by nemesis on Sept 24, 2006 6:49:05 GMT 3
Houloun was a olhunud woman Borte was a hongirad woman.
Let me clarify certain things here. When red russia dominated mongolia until 1991, they tried to destroy mongolian culture, language, everything that was mongol, as much as they could. Russians killed, tortured, burnt, stole, destroyed absolutley everything. A mongol keeping anything to do with the past was considered a nationalist or an enemy. He would be shot and his family would starve to death. Because of this russian policy people destroyed their own belongings out if fear. Now you cannot blame mongolian people for that. They did what they must do just to survive. Me, personally know my ancestors and theirs for 4 generations and not more. I wish I knew more but political pressure kept mongols to do unimaginable terrible things to themselves. Try to understand this!!!
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 24, 2006 21:03:09 GMT 3
Another reason to hate that evil USSR
|
|
|
Post by Bor Chono on Sept 25, 2006 4:21:13 GMT 3
Yes, I heard that our family used to worship to savage/angry gods like Maha-gal.(Some blue gods with many hands) Communist party members(=I mean they weren`t Russians!) took their images(=had no fear of it, seemed not educated in gods teachings =lower class ppl) & just burned outside of the ger. Elder brothers of my mother`s side grand grandfather had many metal made gods. They said they didn`t burn them they just took them away =maybe metal was useful.(Even bow & arrows, silver cups were taken) (My grandfathers were quite young & served in army when they returned home elder brothers were gone.) My grand father serving in Mongolian Red Army. Maybe his big green(=if eyes are not dark colored Mongols call it "Nogoon"="Green") eyes helped him.(=He looked Russian or Kazak). I heard that some (well made) art works were called "Narodnaya Iskustvo"="Art of ppl" & carried to Russia/Moscow. Russians made us(=Mongols) not to speak bad things about about them. I think communist Russians were better than today`s Russians(=it is not safe to travel around Russian if U are Mongol ).
|
|
|
Post by BAWIR$AQ on Sept 25, 2006 6:10:20 GMT 3
Let me clarify certain things here. When red russia dominated mongolia until 1991, they tried to destroy mongolian culture, language, everything that was mongol, as much as they could. Russians killed, tortured, burnt, stole, destroyed absolutley everything. A mongol keeping anything to do with the past was considered a nationalist or an enemy. He would be shot and his family would starve to death. Because of this russian policy people destroyed their own belongings out if fear. Now you cannot blame mongolian people for that. They did what they must do just to survive. Me, personally know my ancestors and theirs for 4 generations and not more. I wish I knew more but political pressure kept mongols to do unimaginable terrible things to themselves. Try to understand this!!! But wasn't that the Russian baron Ungern who kicked Chinese out of Ulanbataar? And weren't that the Soviets who saved Mongolia (both Outer and Inner) from Japan? Kazaks suffered from the Soviet-Russian colonization no less than Mongols (perhaps more), but don't forget that many of today's economy and infrastructure was also built during that period. And the Soviet period was not only bad, it had many of the positive things, too. As for the pressure issue, Kazaks were under the Russian colonization much longer than Mongols, but that didn't make us forget our tradition of ancestry and the memory of which tribes we belong to. The same with Kyrgyz and other Turkic people who had the same tradition of knowing their tribes.
|
|
|
Post by nemesis on Sept 25, 2006 7:19:47 GMT 3
besides russians there were russian educated mongol governers and their liutenants to work for russian interests. Mongol looking, mongol speaking russian devils were running Mongolia.
|
|
|
Post by Verinen Paroni on Sept 25, 2006 15:40:43 GMT 3
Bawirsaq: Baron Ungern was not russian. And he did not care russians at all. What I know, he had no good opinions of them. Well, it is not always safe to travel in Finland if you are russian. So, it works also that way. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Verinen Paroni on Sept 25, 2006 15:46:49 GMT 3
|
|
|
Post by BAWIR$AQ on Sept 25, 2006 16:21:03 GMT 3
Bawirsaq: Baron Ungern was not russian. And he did not care russians at all. What I know, he had no good opinions of them. He was Russian, as Russian as Pushkin (Ethiopian origins), Lermontov (Scottish origins), Ermolov (Turkic origins), and many other high-ranking tsarist Russians with non-Russian origins (even Ivan the Terrible). "Russian" is not an ethnicity with common origins, it is a nation, an imperial nation which was based on the devotion to the tsar and the Russian empire. So was Ungern. He was fighting for the imperial Russia and was one of the only "whites" who demanded the restoration of the tsardom.
|
|