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Post by Temüjin on Sept 7, 2009 20:58:53 GMT 3
Yes I'm sure. More than a thousand years, the Arabs, Iranians, Turks, Indians and others who used the Arabic script have written Khan with the "Frictive H", "Long A" and "N" letters: ﺨﺎﻦ (Khān/Xān/Ḫān). In the Arabic script, the Hard K (Qāf ق), Soft K (Kāf ﻙ), Ordinary H (Hāʾ ه), Frictive H (Ḫāʾ خ), the special Semitic H (Ḥāʾ ح), Soft G (Gāf گ) and Hard G (Ġayn ﻍ) are all distinguished letters, and Khan is always and always written with the Ḫāʾ خ letter. The only difference about Q (Hard K) today is that in Persian, if I am not wrong, it's pronounced like Hard G. Nothing different with the Frictive H though. My point is that, Russian-Mongolian X (Kh) is pronunced the same way with the Ch of German and Scottish (a bit harder than the German Ch actually) and the Frictive H (Ḫāʾ خ) of the Arabic script. The word Ḫan is written in English and German with "Kh", which is the actual English way of writing the Frictive H sound, but the English-speakers and Germans mispronounce it as Hard K (Q), which is wrong. But it has been mispronounced for a very long time that it's now impossible to change the pronunciation in those languages. Even I pronounce Khan as "Kan" when speaking in English, and only as the real "Khan/Xan" when speaking with Turko-Mongols, Arabs, Iranians and Pakistanis-Indians. yeah i see, i already thought it's possible it's a matter of inacuracy... will be really hard to get ridd of that wrong pronunciation
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 7, 2009 22:15:01 GMT 3
Well even I mispronounce it when speaking in English, otherwise people won't understand ;D
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Post by Kilij Arslan on Jan 21, 2010 3:03:44 GMT 3
And by the way... Chanyu would be "revered/esteemed house" (sth like noble then) according to Zuev (and he based this opinion on Taskin and other folks equally unknown to me ). I don't know what word transliteration 'chan' would be (as I took but first steps in learning modern Turkish, and every time I attend to lesson, I get the feeling I'm sooo lame, thus of course ancient Turkish is out of question) but yu would be ancient turkic ÜI (which apparently is cognate through YWI with ÄV, getting it close to modern Turkish ev), oft written with chinese character jia (family).
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 21, 2010 13:03:59 GMT 3
Interesting idea. However the connection with Turkic Äb/Üy/Ev is dubious for me, because when I checked Edwin G. Pulleyblank's old Chinese pronunciatons lexicon, I saw that Pulleyblank reconstructed Chan-yu's 單于 yu's 于 pronunciation as wuă (4th-6th centuries), yă (6th-10th centuries) and ju' (13th-14th centuries). The Turkic word Äb indeed can be seen in Chinese sources regarding the Gokturk period, where the source Tong-dian 通典 recorded the Gokturk title Yi Ke-han 遺可汗 and explained Yi 遺 as "House" (thus, the title meaning "House Qaghan", used for princes who stayed in the administrative center of the empire, similar to the later Turko-Mongol title Otčigin). Pulleyblank gives the old pronunciations of Yi 遺 as jwi (4th-6th cen.), jyj (6th-10th cen.) and ji' (13th-14th cen.), which are indeed closer to Turkic Äb in pronunciation. As for the Äb -> Üy change in Turkic, the form Üy is seen in the later dialects, but the b -> y change can be seen in the Gokturk period itself (an example of this is the runic Ulaanbaatar Inscription, where Old Turkic Sub meaning "Water" is written as Suy). Regarding Zuev's (who based on Taşkın, who is unfamiliar to me as well) idea that yu 于 was "Äb/Üy", I can't say it's wrong nor can I fully support it.
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altais
Är
NOMAD HUNTER!
Posts: 16
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Post by altais on Nov 11, 2012 19:09:52 GMT 3
In the Mongolian a consonant G (sounds like Gummi, Gitar, Greek etc.) between vowels disappeared lately, but the classic Mongolian writing system still does have it. It means that the Mongolian script was first introduced when people spoke with G sound. It was the beginning of the13th century. ᠬᠠᠭᠠᠨ (hagan) is read nowadays HAAN, like ᠪᠠᠭᠠᠲᠦᠷ (bagatur) is read baatar. This tells me that these words have Mongolian origin and spread out lately after the Mongol expansion.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 11, 2012 22:21:34 GMT 3
Those titles existed way before the Mongol Empire was founded, but it is true that the Mongol re-introduced them in parts of Eurasia such as the Middle East
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Post by ancalimon on Nov 12, 2012 19:56:49 GMT 3
So what's the etymology of the word Khan. Are there any related words?
For example do you think it is a root word itself or consists of two different roots or a root and a suffix?
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Post by massaget on Nov 12, 2012 21:53:04 GMT 3
Or just a shortened version of khagan..
altais : I think its more of a proof for turkish origin for bagatur and khan instead of mongolian.
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Post by ancalimon on Nov 12, 2012 23:01:28 GMT 3
khagan seems like a repetition of the word khan itself. Maybe meaning something like Khan of Khans.
Anyway, the root is unknown to me.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 12, 2012 23:26:32 GMT 3
There is unfortunately still no attested and universally accepted etymology, but it is obvious that Qan/Khan was a shortened form of Qaghan. What root exactly Qaghan is based on is not known.
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Post by massaget on Nov 17, 2012 18:01:24 GMT 3
Khag, this doesnt sounds türkic does it ? Sounds caucasian maybe iranian to me.as well as -an as a suffix if it is a suffix at all.
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Post by Ardavarz on Nov 17, 2012 23:05:22 GMT 3
It is not "Khag+an", but that Khan/Qan has developed from Qaghan with dropping out the uvular gh-sound between the vowels and leaving a long a (thus becoming "Khaan" like in modern Mongolian).
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Post by Turan on Nov 3, 2015 14:51:07 GMT 3
The tittle Kagan/Khan was first officially used by Tolon/Tolun Khan. Which was during the Apar empire. And the tittle was given on to next generation(s).
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nomadsoul
Är
bearer of the Afanasevo culture
Posts: 27
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Post by nomadsoul on Sept 15, 2016 6:42:28 GMT 3
Turkic language has both Iranian and Tocharian elements
Khan means King, possibly borrowed from Tocharian
Tocharian is a (now-extinct) branch of IE language
distantly related to old Germanic
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 15, 2016 10:42:19 GMT 3
Maybe, maybe not, we are not sure.
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