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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 16, 2007 1:49:18 GMT 3
I think our friend still confuses the two different terms "Mongol" and "Mongoloid".
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Post by tuguldur on Sept 16, 2007 2:05:08 GMT 3
The fact is that it is estimated that 1 in every 200 male has mongolian blood! i'm not talking from my back, it was actual scientific research conclusion! Show me some of that "research" that states that "1 in every 200 male has mongolian blood" Read the Book "Genghis Khan: Life Death and Resurrection" by John Man. Intro page and here is the "The American Journal of Human Genetics" direct link to the research www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v72n3/024530/024530.html------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yes probably im confusing Mongol, Mongoloid. ------------------------------------------------------------ Whats the problem with using the word barbaric/barbarian? Do you actually know what it different meanings? Yes it can mean uncivilized! and yes it is western view BUT it can also mean savage, brutal, fierce etc! So don't try to make it as if I'm downgrading my own people! Anyone person/nation goes around killing the innocent can and will be labelled barbaric! If a judge sentences a man of raping a under age girl calls him barbaric doesn't literally mean he is uncivilized, beast! Don't look too hard into what I write, I might have made few errors with Mongol/Mongoliod but my theory of Kazak and nomads coming from modern day Mongolia is very true! so I will say what i said before! Kazaks are Mongols!
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Sept 16, 2007 2:14:38 GMT 3
This is not a "mongolian" blood, but a genetic lineage.
You really don't understand the difference, do you?
It originated approximately ~1,000 years in what is now Mongolia. Geneticists attribute this lineage to Genghis Khan, but that hypothesis is far from certain because 1,000 years ago, modern Mongolia was inhabited by various tribes which spoke various languages.
You don't study history? Maybe it is time to start doing so.
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Post by tuguldur on Sept 16, 2007 2:17:23 GMT 3
Read the book I mentioned!
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Sept 16, 2007 2:22:31 GMT 3
I don't know what "thingy" you are talking about. Speak so people can understand you.
Yes, by using our enimies definitions, you are downgrading your people.
I explained you the absurdity of calling all the various nomads who ordinated from what later became "Mongolia" as "Mongols".
If you wish to continue to appear on this forum as a historic ignorant, that is your right, too.
If your logic was correct, then all of the humans could be called "Ethiopians", "Kenyans", and "Tanzanians" simply because the oldest human fossils were found in the area which later became known as modern Ethiopia, Kenya, and Tanzania.
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Post by tuguldur on Sept 16, 2007 2:29:48 GMT 3
At the end of the day no one has 100% certainty where man come from! but i know the fact that kazaks and central asian nomads originated from Altai Mountains, which is the modern day Mongolia! We agree on that right?
and yes if you have the mentality to kill someone innocent that is inhuman! I'm sure your religion has taught you that.
I will say we were barbaric and I'm not downgrading my people!
They say what goes around comes around, look at where we are now.
If the word barbaric is hitting your sensitive spots, by all means suggest a better word that describes the actions of the Mongol Empire, Roman Empire, Nazis etc!
and whats the difference between Nazi and Mongols?
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Sept 16, 2007 3:24:09 GMT 3
I will say we were barbaric and I'm not downgrading my people! whats the difference between Nazi and Mongols? See, that's the difference between you and me. I respect my ancestors and my people. You, on the other hand, are degrading your ancestors, call them inhumane and savage "barbarians", and compare then to Nazis! You make me sick.
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Post by tuguldur on Sept 16, 2007 3:44:31 GMT 3
I respect my people too and I will be the first person to feel proud that we have killed so many people and I wished they could have destroyed China completely!
BUT
On the other hand is it morally right to kill and also rape innocent people? I don't know if you have brother or sister but if they went around killing and raping innocent people, are you gonna turn around and say that is totally normal just because his your brother?
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Sept 16, 2007 4:09:23 GMT 3
First you question the morality of "kill and rape" performed by your ancestors and compare them to Nazis, and then you "feel proud" of many people killed and wish the destruction of China.
You are the most confused & contradictory Mongol I've ever seen.
The slaughters made by Genghis are not comparable to those performed by the Nazis. Genghis killed those who resisted him and killed his soldiers, while Hitler killed innocent civilians based on their race.
The very fact that you blindly repeat Western or Chinese slanders and accusations of the nomads and their comparisons to Nazis show you as an ignorant and brainwashed person.
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Sept 16, 2007 4:20:29 GMT 3
my theory of Kazak and nomads coming from modern day Mongolia is very true! so I will say what i said before! Kazaks are Mongols! Cool down, it is not your theory. Nobody is arguing that Central Asian nomads originated in what later became known as "Mongolia". I explained you the absurdity of calling all the various nomads who ordinated from what later became "Mongolia" as "Mongols". If you wish to continue to appear on this forum as a historic ignorant, that is your right, too. If your logic was correct, then all of the humans could be called "Ethiopians", "Kenyans", and "Tanzanians" simply because the oldest human fossils were found in the area which later became known as modern Ethiopia, Kenya, and Tanzania.
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Post by tuguldur on Sept 16, 2007 4:22:49 GMT 3
you havn't answered many of the questions i have asked you.
Are you proud that your Ancestors killed many people? And is it not wrong to kill people? So how would you describe the terror we caused during the Mongol Empire in ONE word?
I'm proud of my history but it doesn't hide the the fact the brutal and savage nature of the war!
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Post by tuguldur on Sept 16, 2007 4:24:40 GMT 3
If your logic was correct, then all of the humans could be called "Ethiopians", "Kenyans", and "Tanzanians" simply because the oldest human fossils were found in the area which later became known as modern Ethiopia, Kenya, and Tanzania. But we don't look like them! you look like us and we look like you! and therefore we only gonna go far as Altai Mountain and your appearance, unless you wanna go Adam and Eve or Aliens?
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Post by tuguldur on Sept 16, 2007 4:36:56 GMT 3
Lets go back to where things got little hairy. Let me refrain what I meant. Kazak's are Mongols: I wasn't literally saying current day Kazaks are mongols, I was refering to as there is not much difference between kazaks and mongols couple of hundred years ago in terms of physical appearance. Also when I meant Mongoliod, I watched a programme about the Mongoliod people and their physical shape and yes it referes(use to) to the yellow race but since it is no longer used term! The Mongoliod term currently used is more to do with physical shape of the head and the body (it must mean genetics/blood) rather then its colour of the skin. (well thats my understanding, I might be wrong) But if I was a Chinese man and they used the term to describe all asian as Mongoliod, I will probably be upset, maybe the some Kazak people will not accept the fact that Mongoliod term to describe their physical nature. So please don't read certain lines to hard and read it as a whole; Kazaks are Mongols! I though all most asian nomads with high cheeck bones were refered to as Mongoloids! read on: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloidmaybe wikipedia is bad idea to learn history. I'm giving my ideas/views , so please dont try to stir it up with pinch of salt.
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Sept 16, 2007 5:34:14 GMT 3
But we don't look like them! you look like us and we look like you! You were arguing about the geographical origins (modern Mongolia), not the looks (Mongoloid). Stick with what you said and stop being a such a flip-flop! As for the physical appearance, "Mongoloid" is a widely accepted term for the East-Asian race, and only an IDIOT will use interchangeably such vastly different terms as "Mongol" and "Mongoloid", "Caucasus" and "Caucasoid". Are you claiming that "Mongol" and "Mongoloid" are the same thing??? I am not ashamed of the fact that my ancestors killed many people. They didn't kill them more than other empires and nations did, nor did they kill them without any reason or for such shameful reasons like the racial hatred as with the Nazis (who you so much love comparing them to). Yes, our ancestors caused much terror throughout their history of conquest, but the difference between you and me is that I wouldn't use derogatory and offensive terms of our enemies like "barbarian" and "savage" for my ancestors because the respect for the ancestors (ata-babalar) is deeply embedded in every Qazaq.
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Post by tuguldur on Sept 16, 2007 6:20:13 GMT 3
Ok I respect, what you believe and respect. I might have sent out the wrong message because I, myself was little confused with the terms.
I'm not claiming!..My understanding of Mongoliod is the word used for physical appearance and Mongol is the location of people.
1. How many killed is irrelevant.
3. At the end of the day your any religion does not permit unlawful killing. Can you remind me what was the actual reason for killing and conquering?
4. Reason for comparing is to highlight the fact that Germany under Nazi Hitler rule managed to conquer vast land in short space of time like the Mongol Empire and I have only compared once and since been argued and continued.
5. Maybe word barbaric/savage to your culture means something very degrading but when someone says "be more civilized doesn't actually mean he/she is uncivilized". Words can have different meaning and twist depending on whole sentence. I used the word barbaric to dramatize the whole event of the war (killings, raping, slavery etc), not just Mongols but every Empire. Maybe I lived in the West too long and used certain words wrongfully and disrespectfully, if so I apologize.
Also you are the first Kazak person that I have come across and shared views and I think I can have a couple of pints of Airag or Guinness with with some russian salad and boiled meat.
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